SAS Innovate 2024 | Mike Blanchard | SAS & Regan Yan | Digital Alchemy

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Mike Blanchard

VP of Customer Intelligence

SAS

Regan Yan

CEO

Digital Alchemy

From data custodians to AI innovators: The evolution of digital marketing

Analytics software provider SAS Institute Inc. is working with its customer base to navigate a new marketing world where the rise of generative artificial intelligence has created a whirlwind of change, while some elements remain unaffected.“I describe it as a tornado of change, but the constant is still the same,” said Mike Blanchard (pictured, left), vice president of customer intelligence at SAS. “Consumers have had a lot of choice about who they do business with, and they will do it on their own terms. The world has just gotten more complicated, so at the end of the day trust between the consumer and the brand is the most important thing for generating loyalty share of wallet

play_circle_outline The Power of Data and Trust: Unveiling the Dynamic Duo Driving Marketing Automation and Loyalty

play_circle_outline Challenges faced by brands in managing consumer relationships in a complex digital world

play_circle_outline The Game-Changer: Utilizing Generative AI for Marketing Analytics and Content Generation Amidst Shifts in Data Privacy

play_circle_outline Responsibilities of safeguarding consumer data

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Mike Blanchard | SAS & Regan Yan | Digital Alchemy

Mike Blanchard

VP of Customer Intelligence SAS

Regan Yan

CEO Digital Alchemy

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>> Welcome back, everyone. This is theCUBE's live coverage here in Las Vegas. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE with Dave Vellante. SAS Innovate 2024. Mike Blanchard, VP of Customer Intelligence at SAS, and Regan Yan, CEO of Digital Alchemy, is here in theCUBE. Great to have you guys on, thanks for coming on. Appreciate you.

Mike Blanchard

>> Thank you.

>> Yeah,

>> great to be here.Appreciate it.Great

>> stage performance up on Keynote this morning.

>> Thank

>> you.And you got a customer. I love the name of the company, by the way. Because in my mind, I'm thinking pulling LLMs, fusing them together, integrating and having value.

Mike Blanchard

>> Shaking them up.

>> Our logo used to have lots of ones and zeros on it.

>> And I think Alchemy is a great way to look at how data's really interacting with each other.

>> Absolutely.

>> We think there's a lot of chemistry behind how data works. So, take a minute to explain what you guys do, then we can get into some of the chat.

Mike Blanchard

>> Yeah. So, we're a global marketing services organization. We implement and manage marketing automation for organizations. And in many cases, we're augmenting and supporting their existing capabilities, but we're very focused on automation. So, we do a lot of implementation, but our specialty is to get marketing automation implementations to automate, because there's a lot more marketing automation implementations in place than there is marketing automation.

>> The ad-tech business, mark-tech business is changing. Those stats are well-known. By the way, they're also cutting edge. The database work involved over the years, I mean, it's a total platform. And every revolution is an abstraction layer of new stuff. It kind of puts a cap on it, it doesn't really shut down, maybe changes some of the dynamics of what was before. But the new generative AI is not pre-programmed stuff. It's generating stuff on the fly, so that you need data and you need to have outcomes. So, this is a big part of the story here at SAS. How do you guys see that as a solution evolving, because you're going to have net new components. The game is still the same: I want to put something at the right place at the right time, that has the contextual relevance for the people I'm trying to reach. And that's going to require, again, another quant jock-like automated system. What do you guys see for that? Because digital marketing, your CMO is all behind this. She sees AI being a real driver of change.

Regan Yan

>> Well, I think you said it. I think I'd describe it as a sort of tornado of change, but actually the constant is still the same. And if you think back 30 years now, consumers have had a lot of choice about who they do business with, and they will do it on their own terms, right? And there's also so many others that they can go to, that the world has just got more complicated. So, at the end of the day, trust between the consumer and the brand is the most important thing for generating loyalty share of wallet. But now, the brands have got so much to deal with. They have all of the explosion of the fact that they have nowhere to hide. Right? Consumers can go and find out about every product and service, not from the brand, but by someone writing a review, posting something on social.

>> Reddit.

>> People like you. Yeah. Exactly, right? So, that's just the first thing. Second thing, they've got people coming into their industry that are trying to re-engineer the business processes. Then, you go to the technology. And then, you have the whole... I mean, we are in probably the most innovative part of the market, marketing and advertising technology. It hits every trend, every buzz term comes to life first through these kinds of technologies. So, today, you've kind of got these poor brands that are still trying to do the same thing, manage consumer relationships. They're dealing with generative AI, cookie apocalypses, all of these, CDPs, composability, marketing stacks, right?

>> Clean rooms.

Regan Yan

>> Clean rooms, right?

>> New regulations. The EU's coming... Not that you're part of that anymore, but...

>> Yeah. They do all that, and then the regulations are all changing right at the same time. So, it's not an easy life. But I would say the heart of everything comes down to what we're seeing now. Generative is bringing it to life. It's the data, right? The data is the lifeblood underneath.

Regan Yan

>> Talk about your relationship with each other. Obviously, I can see that, I'm just trying to connect dots in my head. Just jump right to it. Talk about the relationship, because I can imagine that AI's going to help with a lot of the data interchange, because you've got a lot of different diverse data sources and types. I mean, you're talking about ads, you've got different sources, you've got APIs. 85% of traffic on the internet is API-based. Okay, so that's an interconnect. So, data's going to be exchanging. So, talk about your relationship, how you guys work together. I can envision this being pretty cool.

>> Yeah.

Regan Yan

>> Do you want me to go?So, I think SaaS is developing the platforms that create connectivity and access to the data. What we do is we help clients actually make the most of that data, right? So, I think there's two things that generative AI is going to transform in marketing. The first is the analytics process. So, at the moment, clients don't use all of the data they got. Not because they can't access it, because their brains just can't get to all of the data in a timely enough manner to actually execute. So, generative AI is going to significantly change the way we query and understand the data. You can ask a machine a question about my data and it'll come back to you. So, that's going to increase the scope of data that that market is going to be able to use to generate their campaigns. Because at the moment, I've got this much data, but I only use this much data.

Mike Blanchard

>> So, it's not lack of data.

>> It's not lack of data. At the moment,

Mike Blanchard

>> it's not lack of data.It's the ability to leverage it.

>> Correct. And GenAI will change that by being able to

Mike Blanchard

>> comprehend...Do you think that'll uncover, in the near-term, the lack of data? In other words, I need more data, I need to go to other outside sources? Actually, the data that I haven't been using, that I haven't had access to is crap.

>> So, I think that that's actually part of a separate trend that's going on with the deprecation of third party cookies, is a lot of marketing organizations have kind of gone out and gotten third party data and connected data together and they've neglected their own data. And what we're seeing, over the last 12 to 18 months, is organizations going, "Oh, these third party cookies might not be there soon. I'd better focus on my own data." So, there's a lot of focus now on owned data, first party data. There's

Mike Blanchard

>> a lot...Like journey mapping, all that kind of stuff?

>> Journey mapping on your own data, not journey mapping on somebody else's data, right?

Mike Blanchard

>> Because the cookie crutch, or the cookie binky is going.

>> Right. And it's suddenly just snapped in a lot of people's minds. They go, "Oh, my god," you know? So, what we're seeing, and this is where I think SAS is really strong, is that SAS is really strong in complex data. So, a lot of the other platforms, they're really good in the digital data. Digital data is much easier to stitch together than digital to legacy data. When you start to go into your legacy banking systems or your legacy POS systems, much harder to stitch all that data together. And I think that's where we're seeing a lot of focus for marketers now, suddenly waking up going, "Actually, I got to focus on my own data.

Mike Blanchard

>> "And I think our history in this space goes back well over 20 years, to the old direct marketing days where, actually, there was good behaviors around managing first party data, providing personalized communication at that time through post and those kind of things. The digital world, people got lazy, because they didn't have to manage first party data. But suddenly, they're now coming back, it's sort of going full circle, coming back again and saying, "Oh, actually I do need to understand who this individual is, and I need to understand and use that data responsibly," both for what I'm telling you, but also how I'm telling you how I'm using your data. So, it's kind of a world that's just spun back around again.

Regan Yan

>> Doesn't it also put pressure on firms and brands to actually rethink their content strategies? Because they now need original content?

>> I actually think that's the other opportunity for GenAI, is in content generation. So, one of my hobby horses in marketing is A-B testing. I hate A-B testing. I've never seen an A-B test where test A or test B is more than 10% or 20% better than the other one, right? And that's mostly borne out of our limitation to actually create content, because it's been handcrafted, the creative's been handcrafted. But with GenAI, we'll now be able to create 20 or 30 different propositions and test them simultaneously.

Mike Blanchard

>> Scale it, yeah.And

>> scale it. So, we'll be able to test at scale, and we'll be able to execute that

Regan Yan

>> at scale.But it's also getting the data, the micro segments alongside the content, right?Yep.So, if you know that there are multiple different variants of consumers or audiences within that same campaign...

>> You can

Regan Yan

>> test those, yeah.You can then break down your content into multiple variants of content, right? So, the two have to go symbiotic and hand-in-hand. So, the content piece has to map also with the data.

>> So, just talking about personalization at scale, mass customization but at scale, and personalized. Yeah, that's new.

>> Right.

Mike Blanchard

>> That's hard.

>> So, I mean, as a concept, it's been there for a long time.

>> Yeah, but it's exceedingly difficult to actually execute.

Mike Blanchard

>> But our ability to execute has been limited by our ability to create very targeted content, or offers, and very small segments.

>> Let me ask you a question on this elusive goal to get the data. A-B testing might shift into more of, how do I get actually good data in the organics market? So, as a marketer, where are the customers, where are those watering holes? I mean, LinkedIn's not great at analytics. Twitter's got an API; who knows what that's going to be one day? Reddit. So, as you start seeing where users are gathering first party data, I can see that being... Will there be a shift back to company sites, or is that already happening?

Mike Blanchard

>> It's already happening. Already happening.

>> So, your advice, get your first party watering hole, its website, web application.

Mike Blanchard

>> Here's what I tell people, right? If you're using third party data, it's like a Tinder profile. Third party data is the equivalent to a Tinder profile. It kind of represents the person, but it's subjective, and it's what I want to tell the world. You can meet somebody based on a Tinder profile, but you'll never build a relationship based on their Tinder profile. To build a relationship with somebody, you need to go on a date, you need to talk to them. You need to get information about that person that isn't on their profile, right? And so, to me, a third party cookie is a Tinder profile. Your first party data is the data that you've collected going on dates, and that's what you need to build a relationship. You cannot build a relationship on a .That's

>> a great analogy, actually, the dating app relationship. Let me throw one more variable into your mix, I love that analysis. Let's throw the Coachella example in there. I love to go to festivals where all my tribe is.

>> Right.

>> And there's different sections and different stages. So, there's still that group dynamic. I want to be with my peers. I'll show off that relationship with the website. Has "site" turned into Coachella, or is that going to be third party? And then, that's a challenge. I mean, we're seeing a lot of people trying to go where their peers are, and LinkedIn's doing that right now. People think that's for business, and they're growing, because Facebook's changed. You've got Instagram, WhatsApp.

Regan Yan

>> But I think people are recognizing now, or brands are recognizing that those platforms, what they're ultimately doing is monetizing first party data. They're just doing it in different ways. And I think what you're seeing now is some of those brands respond and say, "We could monetize our own first-party data by providing, for example, through retail media. Why are Amazon and Facebook and Google doing all this monetization of advertising, when people are coming to my website, I could promote other people's products." And that's what you see in this growth of this whole retail media, the monetization opportunities, because people are spying now. People know the big guys have got big targets behind them, because no one wants to get caught up now in their ecosystems. And they're saying, "Well, they're just taking me out of business, ultimately.

>> "Yeah. Yeah.Yeah.But

>> also, the use of the product in that use case. So, I think this is a good point. The shift to controlling the user experience seems to be the common thread here, whether it's a dating app vibe or hosting Coachella. I mean, you want both, right? People will probably...

Regan Yan

>> Right. The problem is those that understand their customers better, whatever, will win, because they'll be able to build better products, better services, better communications. So, the faster you learn, as Brian says, the faster you'll win.

>> But they have to do it in a governed way.

>> I agree.

>> So, to the point, I mean, how many times have we said something, whether there's an Alexa or Siri around, and all of a sudden you get this ad.

>> Yeah.

>> And you're like, "Oh, my God, they're listening." And so, to the point, if you're part of this ecosystem and they're getting regulated... But okay, if you're going to take it in-house though, you've got to do it in a responsible way.

Mike Blanchard

>> So, significantly higher burden on the partner. And I think there's this movement, a lot of people talk about data ownership. Organizations say, "Data is my greatest asset, my most valuable asset," blah, blah. I actually think that organizations need to move away from an idea that they own the data, to an idea that they are the custodian.Yes.The customer owns their own data. They own their own data. You are the custodian of their data, and as the custodian, you have a responsibility to that customer. And I think, increasingly, organizations are moving in that direction, and I think it's also part of this first party data, because people are believing and understanding that they can control that better if they control what those customers

>> .So, circle back to how you guys are actually working together to solve this problem. I need to understand that.

>> This is like a master class in digital marketing, right? I'm learning a lot. I was going to ask one more question, if you don't mind.

>> Oh, before we do that, yeah, of course.So,

>> knowledge graphs and neural networks are a big part of the AI conversation. And as you look at social graph, we see that. It's also distribution and who you're connected to. So, as you look at the value of the graph data, when you start looking at public open web or OpenAI models... Not OpenAI, but open source, people want to connect with each other. Is there a data source or opportunity that you guys see where, somewhere down the road, there will be a graph structure of people communicating openly, where they own their own data, or is that fantasy?

Regan Yan

>> Well, there's certainly been movements to try and create those open ecosystems. I've not seen them yet take hold in any shape or form. I think more the commercial entities are doing their thing with them. I think what we're seeing is that idea... I think one of you mentioned the clean room example, the idea that how do we bring different parties' data together and get the benefit, where mutually, we can unlock more value together. And so, that is an exciting, sort of when you see the, I guess, the advertising.

>> The alchemy. The alchemy of the data.

Regan Yan

>> Yeah, exactly. The advertising and the kind of classic brand worlds coming together.

>> Yeah. I think you're right on that,

Regan Yan

>> I think that's right on.So, how are you guys solving these problems and adding value to customer?

>> So, as I said, we provide, effectively, the technology and the platform to provide automated marketing campaigns at scale. And I guess our job is really to help brand... I mean, at any moderate scale, brands need to build technologies, processes, inside their ecosystems to get personalization right, to create the appearance that we understand you as a customer and a consumer. So, we're providing that technology. It sits on top of our analytical capabilities. So, one way I would describe it is we connect to the data, we're then interpreting the data to build the understanding. We're converting raw data into patterns of behavior. And then, at an operational level, we create, effectively, audiences, segments for targeting, and that delivers the campaign cycle through. Ultimately, that ends up in posts on Facebook, direct marketing, digital communications. But that all has to be sequenced into journeys.

>> And it's bring-your-own-data model, or?

Regan Yan

>> No, no, so it's bring-your-own-data.

>> Okay, so it's bring-your-own-data. So, what if I don't have the volume of data? I got to go figure it out, I got to go get it, then call you guys? Or, can you help me do that?

Mike Blanchard

>> So, we can help you do that. So, we spend a lot of time with our customers, if they're starting on this journey, building data strategies for them. Where's the data that... Because there's actually a lot of data within organizations that people don't know about. There's this data sitting in all sorts of repositories around organizations. So, the first thing that we will generally do is go, "Where's the data, and how do we stitch that data together?" And then, look at the data, the data gaps, and then see how can we plug those gaps. We operate around the world, and different geographies have different accesses to different second party data and stuff like that. But in the US, the second party data is pretty good.

>> And I mean, you were talking about multimodal, you were at Google Next last week. I mean, image creation, obviously, it's moving fast. A lot of it was manual before; I tried a prompt that didn't work, "Oh, forget it." ChatGPT can't spell, DALL-E can't spell. That's getting much, much better. You plug into that.

Mike Blanchard

>> Yes.

>> Right.

Mike Blanchard

>> So, what we're doing is we're enabling those processes, because whatever organizations want to do, you've got to set up the processes to make sure that that happens well, right? And there's going to be... The machines can do the grunt work, but someone still has to tell the machine what to do, right? And they're not at that point where they know exactly what to do yet.

Regan Yan

>> And then, you've got to think of things like exclusion rules, contact policies, all of the overheads that the teams still have to manage,

>> right?Yep. Right.

>> Because obviously, if I start over-communicating to you, you get those communications wrong, you're just going to have the backlash and the negative effect of what you're actually trying to achieve.

Mike Blanchard

>> But I heard a great quote yesterday, that marketers are worried that AI is going to take over their job. And the job is not going to be taken by AI, but it might be taken by a marketer who understands AI.

>> Human in the loop, driving the new toy. I mean, it's like how do you drive AI? And it's the data strategy.

Mike Blanchard

>> Yeah. I mean, even automation. If you look at the Industrial Revolution, the Industrial Revolution didn't create unemployment. Right? AI is not going to create unemployment, it's just going to redistribute where the work is done.

>> Yeah, I don't see AI... I mean, we've

>> got...I mean, and it's interesting conversation, because for the first time ever, you're replacing... Machines have always replaced humans, but now you're replacing humans with cognitive functions. Steve Cohen was on TV the other day saying, "We're going to a four-day work week." I go, "Is he gaming the system because he's a workaholic, and he just wants to be able to pick up three more days? Or is it actually going to happen?"I

Mike Blanchard

>> think that's

>> going to happen.We can say, "Four-day work week," but the machine is going to enable that, and the better you

Mike Blanchard

>> can ...Right. I'll get paid the same amount of money, and I'll work four days a week because the machine's doing

>> the other day.And you'll produce way more output.

>> Yeah, and be more creative with the extra day off.

Mike Blanchard

>> Yeah. Right, right. And we'll be more creative. And that's why I think AI opens opportunity, because it opens the opportunity to access more of the data, it opens opportunity to be more creative.

>> So, John, a six-day work week, in your future, because I know how you work.

>> No, I work eight days a week. Guys, great job coming on. Give a final plug, what you guys do, and the big exhibits here, you've got Augmented Analytics, you've got the Innovation Hub here, the Customer Intelligence piece is your piece.

>> Yes.

>> Demos?

>> Give a quick plug for what you do at SAS.

Regan Yan

>> Yeah. So, I'm responsible for the marketing and advertising technologies at SAS. So, it's pretty cool. It's the front end of how we take data and analytics and apply it to consumer experience for many of the largest brands globally. So, it's a fun part, it's the most innovative part of the industry, but it's also something that comes with a huge amount of responsibility from SAS. Safeguarding consumer data probably goes alongside core banking data, health data, those kinds of things. So, we have to do it in a very responsible way.

>> Yeah. Regan, you're going to go to Mexico while you're here in the states. Put a plug in for what you're doing and the firm.

Mike Blanchard

>> So, what we do is we make it work. It's as simple as that. There's a lot of marketing automation, but we're the guys who make it work.

>> You come in, you're the fixer, then give them the keys when you're done.We

Mike Blanchard

>> spend a lot of time fixing.

>> You pass the keys when they're done, you call .We'll

Mike Blanchard

>> stay with

>> you.Oh, okay.

>> In nearly all cases with our clients, we fix it, we get it humming, and then we stay with you.

>> Got it.

>> And we've got clients that have been with us for 15, 20 years.

>> Awesome. Congratulations. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, guys. We appreciate it.

>> Thank you.

>> Yeah.

>> Thank you, guys.I'm John Furrier here at theCUBE, the leader in tech coverage, with Dave Vellante, head of CUBE Research. More coverage after this short break.

Mike Blanchard | SAS & Regan Yan | Digital Alchemy

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>> Welcome back, everyone. This is theCUBE's live coverage here in Las Vegas. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE with Dave Vellante. SAS Innovate 2024. Mike Blanchard, VP of Customer Intelligence at SAS, and Regan Yan, CEO of Digital Alchemy, is here in theCUBE. Great to have you guys on, thanks for coming on. Appreciate you.

Mike Blanchard

>> Thank you.

>> Yeah,

>> great to be here.Appreciate it.Great

>> stage performance up on Keynote this morning.

>> Thank

>> you.And you got a customer. I love the name of the company, by the way. Because in my mind, I'm thinking pulling LLMs, fusing them together, integrating and having value.

Mike Blanchard

>> Shaking them up.

>> Our logo used to have lots of ones and zeros on it.

>> And I think Alchemy is a great way to look at how data's really interacting with each other.

>> Absolutely.

>> We think there's a lot of chemistry behind how data works. So, take a minute to explain what you guys do, then we can get into some of the chat.

Mike Blanchard

>> Yeah. So, we're a global marketing services organization. We implement and manage marketing automation for organizations. And in many cases, we're augmenting and supporting their existing capabilities, but we're very focused on automation. So, we do a lot of implementation, but our specialty is to get marketing automation implementations to automate, because there's a lot more marketing automation implementations in place than there is marketing automation.

>> The ad-tech business, mark-tech business is changing. Those stats are well-known. By the way, they're also cutting edge. The database work involved over the years, I mean, it's a total platform. And every revolution is an abstraction layer of new stuff. It kind of puts a cap on it, it doesn't really shut down, maybe changes some of the dynamics of what was before. But the new generative AI is not pre-programmed stuff. It's generating stuff on the fly, so that you need data and you need to have outcomes. So, this is a big part of the story here at SAS. How do you guys see that as a solution evolving, because you're going to have net new components. The game is still the same: I want to put something at the right place at the right time, that has the contextual relevance for the people I'm trying to reach. And that's going to require, again, another quant jock-like automated system. What do you guys see for that? Because digital marketing, your CMO is all behind this. She sees AI being a real driver of change.

Regan Yan

>> Well, I think you said it. I think I'd describe it as a sort of tornado of change, but actually the constant is still the same. And if you think back 30 years now, consumers have had a lot of choice about who they do business with, and they will do it on their own terms, right? And there's also so many others that they can go to, that the world has just got more complicated. So, at the end of the day, trust between the consumer and the brand is the most important thing for generating loyalty share of wallet. But now, the brands have got so much to deal with. They have all of the explosion of the fact that they have nowhere to hide. Right? Consumers can go and find out about every product and service, not from the brand, but by someone writing a review, posting something on social.

>> Reddit.

>> People like you. Yeah. Exactly, right? So, that's just the first thing. Second thing, they've got people coming into their industry that are trying to re-engineer the business processes. Then, you go to the technology. And then, you have the whole... I mean, we are in probably the most innovative part of the market, marketing and advertising technology. It hits every trend, every buzz term comes to life first through these kinds of technologies. So, today, you've kind of got these poor brands that are still trying to do the same thing, manage consumer relationships. They're dealing with generative AI, cookie apocalypses, all of these, CDPs, composability, marketing stacks, right?

>> Clean rooms.

Regan Yan

>> Clean rooms, right?

>> New regulations. The EU's coming... Not that you're part of that anymore, but...

>> Yeah. They do all that, and then the regulations are all changing right at the same time. So, it's not an easy life. But I would say the heart of everything comes down to what we're seeing now. Generative is bringing it to life. It's the data, right? The data is the lifeblood underneath.

Regan Yan

>> Talk about your relationship with each other. Obviously, I can see that, I'm just trying to connect dots in my head. Just jump right to it. Talk about the relationship, because I can imagine that AI's going to help with a lot of the data interchange, because you've got a lot of different diverse data sources and types. I mean, you're talking about ads, you've got different sources, you've got APIs. 85% of traffic on the internet is API-based. Okay, so that's an interconnect. So, data's going to be exchanging. So, talk about your relationship, how you guys work together. I can envision this being pretty cool.

>> Yeah.

Regan Yan

>> Do you want me to go?So, I think SaaS is developing the platforms that create connectivity and access to the data. What we do is we help clients actually make the most of that data, right? So, I think there's two things that generative AI is going to transform in marketing. The first is the analytics process. So, at the moment, clients don't use all of the data they got. Not because they can't access it, because their brains just can't get to all of the data in a timely enough manner to actually execute. So, generative AI is going to significantly change the way we query and understand the data. You can ask a machine a question about my data and it'll come back to you. So, that's going to increase the scope of data that that market is going to be able to use to generate their campaigns. Because at the moment, I've got this much data, but I only use this much data.

Mike Blanchard

>> So, it's not lack of data.

>> It's not lack of data. At the moment,

Mike Blanchard

>> it's not lack of data.It's the ability to leverage it.

>> Correct. And GenAI will change that by being able to

Mike Blanchard

>> comprehend...Do you think that'll uncover, in the near-term, the lack of data? In other words, I need more data, I need to go to other outside sources? Actually, the data that I haven't been using, that I haven't had access to is crap.

>> So, I think that that's actually part of a separate trend that's going on with the deprecation of third party cookies, is a lot of marketing organizations have kind of gone out and gotten third party data and connected data together and they've neglected their own data. And what we're seeing, over the last 12 to 18 months, is organizations going, "Oh, these third party cookies might not be there soon. I'd better focus on my own data." So, there's a lot of focus now on owned data, first party data. There's

Mike Blanchard

>> a lot...Like journey mapping, all that kind of stuff?

>> Journey mapping on your own data, not journey mapping on somebody else's data, right?

Mike Blanchard

>> Because the cookie crutch, or the cookie binky is going.

>> Right. And it's suddenly just snapped in a lot of people's minds. They go, "Oh, my god," you know? So, what we're seeing, and this is where I think SAS is really strong, is that SAS is really strong in complex data. So, a lot of the other platforms, they're really good in the digital data. Digital data is much easier to stitch together than digital to legacy data. When you start to go into your legacy banking systems or your legacy POS systems, much harder to stitch all that data together. And I think that's where we're seeing a lot of focus for marketers now, suddenly waking up going, "Actually, I got to focus on my own data.

Mike Blanchard

>> "And I think our history in this space goes back well over 20 years, to the old direct marketing days where, actually, there was good behaviors around managing first party data, providing personalized communication at that time through post and those kind of things. The digital world, people got lazy, because they didn't have to manage first party data. But suddenly, they're now coming back, it's sort of going full circle, coming back again and saying, "Oh, actually I do need to understand who this individual is, and I need to understand and use that data responsibly," both for what I'm telling you, but also how I'm telling you how I'm using your data. So, it's kind of a world that's just spun back around again.

Regan Yan

>> Doesn't it also put pressure on firms and brands to actually rethink their content strategies? Because they now need original content?

>> I actually think that's the other opportunity for GenAI, is in content generation. So, one of my hobby horses in marketing is A-B testing. I hate A-B testing. I've never seen an A-B test where test A or test B is more than 10% or 20% better than the other one, right? And that's mostly borne out of our limitation to actually create content, because it's been handcrafted, the creative's been handcrafted. But with GenAI, we'll now be able to create 20 or 30 different propositions and test them simultaneously.

Mike Blanchard

>> Scale it, yeah.And

>> scale it. So, we'll be able to test at scale, and we'll be able to execute that

Regan Yan

>> at scale.But it's also getting the data, the micro segments alongside the content, right?Yep.So, if you know that there are multiple different variants of consumers or audiences within that same campaign...

>> You can

Regan Yan

>> test those, yeah.You can then break down your content into multiple variants of content, right? So, the two have to go symbiotic and hand-in-hand. So, the content piece has to map also with the data.

>> So, just talking about personalization at scale, mass customization but at scale, and personalized. Yeah, that's new.

>> Right.

Mike Blanchard

>> That's hard.

>> So, I mean, as a concept, it's been there for a long time.

>> Yeah, but it's exceedingly difficult to actually execute.

Mike Blanchard

>> But our ability to execute has been limited by our ability to create very targeted content, or offers, and very small segments.

>> Let me ask you a question on this elusive goal to get the data. A-B testing might shift into more of, how do I get actually good data in the organics market? So, as a marketer, where are the customers, where are those watering holes? I mean, LinkedIn's not great at analytics. Twitter's got an API; who knows what that's going to be one day? Reddit. So, as you start seeing where users are gathering first party data, I can see that being... Will there be a shift back to company sites, or is that already happening?

Mike Blanchard

>> It's already happening. Already happening.

>> So, your advice, get your first party watering hole, its website, web application.

Mike Blanchard

>> Here's what I tell people, right? If you're using third party data, it's like a Tinder profile. Third party data is the equivalent to a Tinder profile. It kind of represents the person, but it's subjective, and it's what I want to tell the world. You can meet somebody based on a Tinder profile, but you'll never build a relationship based on their Tinder profile. To build a relationship with somebody, you need to go on a date, you need to talk to them. You need to get information about that person that isn't on their profile, right? And so, to me, a third party cookie is a Tinder profile. Your first party data is the data that you've collected going on dates, and that's what you need to build a relationship. You cannot build a relationship on a .That's

>> a great analogy, actually, the dating app relationship. Let me throw one more variable into your mix, I love that analysis. Let's throw the Coachella example in there. I love to go to festivals where all my tribe is.

>> Right.

>> And there's different sections and different stages. So, there's still that group dynamic. I want to be with my peers. I'll show off that relationship with the website. Has "site" turned into Coachella, or is that going to be third party? And then, that's a challenge. I mean, we're seeing a lot of people trying to go where their peers are, and LinkedIn's doing that right now. People think that's for business, and they're growing, because Facebook's changed. You've got Instagram, WhatsApp.

Regan Yan

>> But I think people are recognizing now, or brands are recognizing that those platforms, what they're ultimately doing is monetizing first party data. They're just doing it in different ways. And I think what you're seeing now is some of those brands respond and say, "We could monetize our own first-party data by providing, for example, through retail media. Why are Amazon and Facebook and Google doing all this monetization of advertising, when people are coming to my website, I could promote other people's products." And that's what you see in this growth of this whole retail media, the monetization opportunities, because people are spying now. People know the big guys have got big targets behind them, because no one wants to get caught up now in their ecosystems. And they're saying, "Well, they're just taking me out of business, ultimately.

>> "Yeah. Yeah.Yeah.But

>> also, the use of the product in that use case. So, I think this is a good point. The shift to controlling the user experience seems to be the common thread here, whether it's a dating app vibe or hosting Coachella. I mean, you want both, right? People will probably...

Regan Yan

>> Right. The problem is those that understand their customers better, whatever, will win, because they'll be able to build better products, better services, better communications. So, the faster you learn, as Brian says, the faster you'll win.

>> But they have to do it in a governed way.

>> I agree.

>> So, to the point, I mean, how many times have we said something, whether there's an Alexa or Siri around, and all of a sudden you get this ad.

>> Yeah.

>> And you're like, "Oh, my God, they're listening." And so, to the point, if you're part of this ecosystem and they're getting regulated... But okay, if you're going to take it in-house though, you've got to do it in a responsible way.

Mike Blanchard

>> So, significantly higher burden on the partner. And I think there's this movement, a lot of people talk about data ownership. Organizations say, "Data is my greatest asset, my most valuable asset," blah, blah. I actually think that organizations need to move away from an idea that they own the data, to an idea that they are the custodian.Yes.The customer owns their own data. They own their own data. You are the custodian of their data, and as the custodian, you have a responsibility to that customer. And I think, increasingly, organizations are moving in that direction, and I think it's also part of this first party data, because people are believing and understanding that they can control that better if they control what those customers

>> .So, circle back to how you guys are actually working together to solve this problem. I need to understand that.

>> This is like a master class in digital marketing, right? I'm learning a lot. I was going to ask one more question, if you don't mind.

>> Oh, before we do that, yeah, of course.So,

>> knowledge graphs and neural networks are a big part of the AI conversation. And as you look at social graph, we see that. It's also distribution and who you're connected to. So, as you look at the value of the graph data, when you start looking at public open web or OpenAI models... Not OpenAI, but open source, people want to connect with each other. Is there a data source or opportunity that you guys see where, somewhere down the road, there will be a graph structure of people communicating openly, where they own their own data, or is that fantasy?

Regan Yan

>> Well, there's certainly been movements to try and create those open ecosystems. I've not seen them yet take hold in any shape or form. I think more the commercial entities are doing their thing with them. I think what we're seeing is that idea... I think one of you mentioned the clean room example, the idea that how do we bring different parties' data together and get the benefit, where mutually, we can unlock more value together. And so, that is an exciting, sort of when you see the, I guess, the advertising.

>> The alchemy. The alchemy of the data.

Regan Yan

>> Yeah, exactly. The advertising and the kind of classic brand worlds coming together.

>> Yeah. I think you're right on that,

Regan Yan

>> I think that's right on.So, how are you guys solving these problems and adding value to customer?

>> So, as I said, we provide, effectively, the technology and the platform to provide automated marketing campaigns at scale. And I guess our job is really to help brand... I mean, at any moderate scale, brands need to build technologies, processes, inside their ecosystems to get personalization right, to create the appearance that we understand you as a customer and a consumer. So, we're providing that technology. It sits on top of our analytical capabilities. So, one way I would describe it is we connect to the data, we're then interpreting the data to build the understanding. We're converting raw data into patterns of behavior. And then, at an operational level, we create, effectively, audiences, segments for targeting, and that delivers the campaign cycle through. Ultimately, that ends up in posts on Facebook, direct marketing, digital communications. But that all has to be sequenced into journeys.

>> And it's bring-your-own-data model, or?

Regan Yan

>> No, no, so it's bring-your-own-data.

>> Okay, so it's bring-your-own-data. So, what if I don't have the volume of data? I got to go figure it out, I got to go get it, then call you guys? Or, can you help me do that?

Mike Blanchard

>> So, we can help you do that. So, we spend a lot of time with our customers, if they're starting on this journey, building data strategies for them. Where's the data that... Because there's actually a lot of data within organizations that people don't know about. There's this data sitting in all sorts of repositories around organizations. So, the first thing that we will generally do is go, "Where's the data, and how do we stitch that data together?" And then, look at the data, the data gaps, and then see how can we plug those gaps. We operate around the world, and different geographies have different accesses to different second party data and stuff like that. But in the US, the second party data is pretty good.

>> And I mean, you were talking about multimodal, you were at Google Next last week. I mean, image creation, obviously, it's moving fast. A lot of it was manual before; I tried a prompt that didn't work, "Oh, forget it." ChatGPT can't spell, DALL-E can't spell. That's getting much, much better. You plug into that.

Mike Blanchard

>> Yes.

>> Right.

Mike Blanchard

>> So, what we're doing is we're enabling those processes, because whatever organizations want to do, you've got to set up the processes to make sure that that happens well, right? And there's going to be... The machines can do the grunt work, but someone still has to tell the machine what to do, right? And they're not at that point where they know exactly what to do yet.

Regan Yan

>> And then, you've got to think of things like exclusion rules, contact policies, all of the overheads that the teams still have to manage,

>> right?Yep. Right.

>> Because obviously, if I start over-communicating to you, you get those communications wrong, you're just going to have the backlash and the negative effect of what you're actually trying to achieve.

Mike Blanchard

>> But I heard a great quote yesterday, that marketers are worried that AI is going to take over their job. And the job is not going to be taken by AI, but it might be taken by a marketer who understands AI.

>> Human in the loop, driving the new toy. I mean, it's like how do you drive AI? And it's the data strategy.

Mike Blanchard

>> Yeah. I mean, even automation. If you look at the Industrial Revolution, the Industrial Revolution didn't create unemployment. Right? AI is not going to create unemployment, it's just going to redistribute where the work is done.

>> Yeah, I don't see AI... I mean, we've

>> got...I mean, and it's interesting conversation, because for the first time ever, you're replacing... Machines have always replaced humans, but now you're replacing humans with cognitive functions. Steve Cohen was on TV the other day saying, "We're going to a four-day work week." I go, "Is he gaming the system because he's a workaholic, and he just wants to be able to pick up three more days? Or is it actually going to happen?"I

Mike Blanchard

>> think that's

>> going to happen.We can say, "Four-day work week," but the machine is going to enable that, and the better you

Mike Blanchard

>> can ...Right. I'll get paid the same amount of money, and I'll work four days a week because the machine's doing

>> the other day.And you'll produce way more output.

>> Yeah, and be more creative with the extra day off.

Mike Blanchard

>> Yeah. Right, right. And we'll be more creative. And that's why I think AI opens opportunity, because it opens the opportunity to access more of the data, it opens opportunity to be more creative.

>> So, John, a six-day work week, in your future, because I know how you work.

>> No, I work eight days a week. Guys, great job coming on. Give a final plug, what you guys do, and the big exhibits here, you've got Augmented Analytics, you've got the Innovation Hub here, the Customer Intelligence piece is your piece.

>> Yes.

>> Demos?

>> Give a quick plug for what you do at SAS.

Regan Yan

>> Yeah. So, I'm responsible for the marketing and advertising technologies at SAS. So, it's pretty cool. It's the front end of how we take data and analytics and apply it to consumer experience for many of the largest brands globally. So, it's a fun part, it's the most innovative part of the industry, but it's also something that comes with a huge amount of responsibility from SAS. Safeguarding consumer data probably goes alongside core banking data, health data, those kinds of things. So, we have to do it in a very responsible way.

>> Yeah. Regan, you're going to go to Mexico while you're here in the states. Put a plug in for what you're doing and the firm.

Mike Blanchard

>> So, what we do is we make it work. It's as simple as that. There's a lot of marketing automation, but we're the guys who make it work.

>> You come in, you're the fixer, then give them the keys when you're done.We

Mike Blanchard

>> spend a lot of time fixing.

>> You pass the keys when they're done, you call .We'll

Mike Blanchard

>> stay with

>> you.Oh, okay.

>> In nearly all cases with our clients, we fix it, we get it humming, and then we stay with you.

>> Got it.

>> And we've got clients that have been with us for 15, 20 years.

>> Awesome. Congratulations. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, guys. We appreciate it.

>> Thank you.

>> Yeah.

>> Thank you, guys.I'm John Furrier here at theCUBE, the leader in tech coverage, with Dave Vellante, head of CUBE Research. More coverage after this short break.