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Cybersecurity and AI trends analysis live from RSA Conference

The cloud computing industry’s growth has led to ample opportunities and challenges. At this week’s RSA Conference in San Francisco, the focus remained on generative artificial intelligence, with some uncertainty about its involvement in recent hacks.The technology will likely become increasingly relevant as it develops further, but these tools still need a lot of work, according to Sarbjeet Johal (pictured), founder and chief executive officer of Stackpane.“I am learning that the ChatGPT-like models are not very good with relational databases,” he said. “They are good with the conversational text … and images and audio

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theCUBE Insights with Sarbjeet Johal

(soft, upbeat music)

>> Welcome back, everyone, to theCUBE's live coverage of RSA Conference 2023. I'm John Furrier, theCUBE's Dave Vellante. Four days of wall-to-wall coverage. We're in Broadcast Alley, where the top publications are here in the security industry, that have been known in covering all the best angles. Of course, SiliconANGLE and theCUBE is here. And this is our wrap up of day two, where we bring the insights, and try to wrap up, kind of our observations, analysis, commentary on the big news, the keynotes, and all that's happening in the security industry. And Sarbjeet Johal is with us. He's an influencer, part of theCUBE team, always coming on as a guest analyst, on his own business. Sarbjeet, good to see you. Thanks for coming on.

>> Sarbjeet: Good to see you, John.

>> Yeah, good to see you John. I mean, Sarbjeet. (Sarbjeet laughing) Good to see you too, John! Haven't seen you all day!

>> You can just call me another name, if you want. (Dave laughing) So Sarbjeet, you and I were on the floor. We checked out the Palo Alto Networks, Tenable, all the top booths. It's packed.

>> Dave: Floor's unbelievable!

It really is. >> Floor's on fire. Action is popping here. Day two, obviously. Yesterday was, kind of, day one, officially. But, the keynotes were at the end. It was kind of a kickoff day. This is kind of day one. I called it day one. Yesterday was day zero. Today is full throttle! What are you seeing?

>> Yeah, actually it was super busy, when I came around, 11 o'clock. There's so many vendors. Like, we know that the security is one of those areas, where the number of vendors is like, there's this long sort of sprawl.

So... >> 4,000-plus, I'm hearing, right?

>> And they have divided, like normally they do, like on the south

and in the west side, right? >> The money's flowing here.

>> So, those two halls and in between those few sort of cubes, you can call it.

>> Dave: It's like wallpaper!

>> Yeah.

>> Dave: All those small startups!

>> Few vendors, in between. They are benefiting from it.

>> You know, that used to not be the case! It used to be empty, in between north and south. And now, it's just full.

>> That wasn't connected before. That was not connected. It's only one little tunnel on the other side. Now, they blew it up, open.

>> Sarbjeet: For the last two times I was here, like it was connected. But, there were vendors there.

>> There were, okay. >> There were vendors. And FBI, I saw FBI, and NSA there as well. So, like, there are country-specific areas. Spain is there, big presence.

>> Let's get in, we don't have a lot of time.

I want to get into the media. >> Yeah, sure.

That's good. >> You guys are the analysts.

I'll ask the question. >> Yeah.

>> What do you think is the most important story that you've seen here, in day two, Dave and Sarbjeet?

>> Okay, for me, it's like the more things change, the more things stay the same. The one big difference is, obviously, generative AI. But, nobody has been able to confirm. When you talk to, you know, the threat intelligence folks, whether it's Mandiant, or Unit 42, from Palo Alto, or anybody. There's no clear evidence, that generative AI, large language models have been, you know, that there's clear signatures, in recent hacks. And we know it's happening. We know when you, people on the dark web, they're saying, they're talking about it. "What's best practice?" "How are you using it?" But, there's no clear evidence,

in the signature, yet. >> John: Yet, yet.

>> Yet. >> John: The key word's yet.

>> Yet is the operative word.

>> John: What's your thoughts, on the most important analysis?

>> Sarbjeet: Yeah, I think "yet", that's a key word right there. Like, for how long do have ChatGPT out, like couple of months, right?

>> 150 days, maybe. >> Yeah. So, the bad guys, they got their hands on, when everybody else got their hands on, right? So, they didn't get their hands onto it, like before, like two months ago. So, they will catch on. And also, actually, I was thinking, when I was coming here, like I think the bad guys were very busy, with crypto side. Like, that was their low-hanging fruit. They were hacking--

>> You mean covering their tracks?

>> (chuckles) Yes!

>> Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. Like, would you rather go for big crypto money, or these small little, like, you know, deals with hacking a school district, or something, right? So, I think as crypto winds down, which I think it will. US is after it, you know, and so many other countries.

>> We saw the Coinbase news. Crypto's not going to go down. We know that.

>> Sarbjeet: I'm in the--

>> So, you're saying, you're saying crypto's dead.

>> Not dead. But, it will gradually, sort of, go down. Even the stable coins are suffering.

>> Let me, let me ask you a different question. Will Bitcoin, 10 years from now, have a larger or smaller market cap?

>> Smaller.

>> Yeah, I would, here, what do you want to bet? If I'm still around? (Sarbjeet laughing) We'll bet a nice dinner.

>> Nice dinner! Yeah, that's good.

>> The loser has to pay, in crypto!

>> Yeah. But, I also spoke to a few people here! Like, I was of the view, that we will use our relational data. Like, you can call it, on threat intelligence and all kinds of data, is sitting in relational databases, as well. As well, as it's sitting in our logs. But, but I am learning that the ChatGPT-like models are not very good with relational databases. They are good with the conversational sort of text, if you will, and/or images,

and/or, you know, audio. >> Yeah, but that's ChatGPT.

>> Yeah. >> Right? There's going to be other foundation models, that perhaps, you know, are going to be able to solve that.

>> Yeah, yeah.

I think-- >> John: But also, but also, ChatGPT is only one form. There was hackers, we had some guests on earlier. I asked the question, and there was other, there's other machine learning, in AI, prior to this.

>> Sarbjeet: Yes.

>> So, the hackers probably had their hands on it, at least six-to-eight months earlier. At least, some of the primitives, on the foundation models.

>> Dave: You heard what I said, to Wendy Whitmore. I said, "AI was invented, in November 2022."

(Dave chuckling) >> No, no. Actually, it has been there for a time!

>> (chuckling) Of course, I'm teasing.

>> Of course, right? And then, and these, this gang, which came from University of Toronto, they have been working on that for a long time. And Google Research has been working on, for like years, if not decades. So, AI is not new thing. And Amazon has been using AI, to throw products at us, for, you know, almost two decades.

>> Well, I think, I think I'd like to get your thoughts on it. 'Cause, one of the things we've been talking about on theCube, and I've been interviewing on my, my one-on-ones, Dave, to answer the question, "What's going to be disrupted?" This is a show, that, I won't say is old, but it's been around, for a while. Supercomputer's been around, since 1988! But, I think there's going to be a handful of these vendors out there, that won't be around a couple years. You got to get it right, here. I mean, you got to be in the right side of history. Get vendor consolidation, for the supplier side.

So, we heard that. >> No question, yeah.

>> Okay? Spending's down, as you reported, in your breaking analysis. And just some technology architectures are, might be wrong. I mean, we just had Cribble on. They're doing a deal, with CrowdStrike. They're the best data connector in the planet, right now. You know, they're eatin' Splunk's lunch!

>> Dave: Well--

>> On XDR! At least, CrowdStrike's SDR package.

>> Sarbjeet: Yeah--

>> Dave: Inertia is a tough thing to move. But yeah, I mean, I think there is

disruption coming. >> So, what are the signs, what are the signs, that people aren't going to make it?

>> I think, the signs are this, that if you're still singing the same song, what you sang, like five years back, then you're dead. Right? So, you have to move with the time. Even if you don't have the products in that bucket, yet, you have to show the market, that we are working on it, or we have this point of view. About AI, about ML, about all, also, all sort of intelligence. And newer, newer paradigms, right? The newer kind of database. Vector databases are coming into the play. Like, how you will leverage that for security, in this case, right? By and/or transactional. You know, like a business transaction.

>> Well, the narrative right now, is you guys, Silicon Valley, growth capital is dried up. Right?

And so, you're saying-- >> John: Not for security.

>> Well, but the numbers show that--

>> John: Well, I mean it's--

>> Dave: You know, C rounds are down.

>> No-- >> John: It's not gratuitous drinking from the trough. It's still funding, good funding.

>> Dave: No, but I'm just saying, for growth capital, you know, for Siri C, is way down. And money shifting, to Siri seed, an early stage. Okay, here's my question to you guys is, will we see a transition? 'Cause in the last five, six years, there's been a ton of funding into cybersecurity companies. You saw it in 2020, 2021. Is that now going to shift, to other areas, like AI? You've been saying, crypto's shifting. The developers all runnin', to AI.

>> I think the AI-- >> Dave: Okay, and then, let me just finish this up. And then, will it come back, in the form of AI, for cyber? And is that going to be the disruptive?

To answer your question. >> John: Yeah. The answer is yes, yes and yes. So, I'll start with the first yes. The startups are going to get funded, out of the gate. Has anyone, has any pedigree, in security, a VC in Silicon Valley and around the world, should seed finance that person. Seed capital is not a problem. It's the growth capital, as you point out. So, I agree with you on that. That's going to, basically, as Michael Dell says, "The rain will wash away "some of the dirt on the street." So, some startups were going to die, because of it. And so, that's going to happen there. Silicon Valley growth equates is going to come down to the alpha engineers, who will use data, to either be a pure play data element, in some sort of new stack that's emerging. So, a structural change in, like, just foundation models. You have platform, Cloud platforms, you've got tools, you've got apps. So, a stack is forming in the, in the AI side. So, they'll either play as a supplier in that, or use AI to refactor something in cyber. So, that's an and equation. So, they'll either be a supplier in cyber. And then, someone might use data, in cyber, to refactor either an incumbent, slow-moving, large market opportunity, and take down a big whale here. So, I think, you know, there'll be whale hunting going on for startups, looking at the big incumbent, slow players, that they'll be more faster. So, I think there'll be cybersecurity aspect there, absolutely. And you'll see the platforms get bigger.

>> I think the big players cannot be taken down, because they're part of the ecosystem. The medium-size, like second tier players, they are in danger. Yeah.

The big players-- >> Like, who? Like, who's a big player?

>> Big players, are like, Google--

>> Oh yeah, they'll never be taken down.

>> They have Mandiant.

Microsoft has had-- >> But, you know, Tenable is a big player. They're a whale.

>> Yeah, yeah.

>> Palo Alto Network's a whale.

>> But, yeah, yeah.

>> Biostrike's a whale.

>> Yeah, Palo Alto Network is--

>> Splunk's a whale, technically.

>> I think, Splunk, I think, has--

>> All I'm saying,

all I'm saying-- >> Sarbjeet: I think that--

>> All I'm saying is, I'm not saying that Palo Alto be taken out by a startup. I'm just saying, it's possible, that a innovative, entrepreneurial team, could put together a killer product, with AI, that changes the value proposition, that will eat away and ultimately put, put down a whale.

>> Sarbjeet: But, but in the bad--

>> Or, the whale will buy them out, and take it over.

>> Sarbjeet: But in the bad market, when money is expensive, the MNA goes high, high up. And even the, even the the good companies, which are smaller startups, right? They want to be acquired. They don't want to go public, because that, that road is so long.

>> Dave: I mean that's, look, it basically, virtually, every Israeli company in this space, where they're some of the most innovative problem solvers in the world, they all end up getting acquired.

>> Yes, yeah. >> Right? I mean, look at guys at Iguazio, right? You remember, "We're take over there!" We used to challenge 'em on that. Of course, they end up getting acquired.

Because-- >> John: Who bought them?

>> I forget. (John and Dave laughing)

>> Sarbjeet: Okay. By the way, Israelis do security, that nobody else does in the world.

>> Yeah, 'cause they were born with security. It's in their DNA. It's from day one.

>> I actually, I,

when I was working at AMC-- >> McKinsey bought Iguazio, right? Interesting. So, there's a case of McKinsey, transitioning into more of a software company.

>> Sensor's doing some acquisitions, too.

>> Sorry to interrupt.

>> So, the MNA, Dave, you pointed this out, I highlighted on my post. But, you pointed out, in your breaking analysis, there are a lot of emerging companies today, that's solving these new challenges, and they're going to be hot targets. So, I expect, that in the next 24 months, and in the first 12 months, leading up to the 24 months, will be a massive MNA activity. Because, no whale is going to let some startup take them down. They probably know that they're on the wrong side of history, relative to their slow position, or their, their girth. And I think they will make a move, to try to figure it out.

>> But, I think this is where the leadership will make a huge difference, right? So some leaders see that as a, as a, these these new vendors are a threat, and then they bring them quickly, and sort of create the narrative around that. But some, they just sit there and wait.

>> This is the classic Cube conversation, we've had Dave, so many times. Organic versus acquisition. You know, you grow organically, or you go outside.

>> Dave: I'll tell you, I'm looking at the survey data right now. Okay, so you got Symantec, which now owned by Broadcom, doesn't have a lot of momentum, but it's Broadcom. So, you know they're sort of doing

their integration thing. >> John: Yeah, yeah.

>> You know, that's a PE play. And so, I don't count them out.

>> John: Mm.

>> Well, we'll see. BlackBerry, of course, pivoted. But, you know, the traditional momentums of ArcSight, which is now owned by Micro Focus. SonicWall. Trellix, which is, used to be McAfee, and FireEye. IBM. Their security business doesn't seem to have a lot of momentum, even though they're big. Secureworks, RSA, Trend Micro, Check Point. These are all the ones that are, sort of, in the red, in terms of spending momentum.

>> Yeah. >> Right? And you flip that. There's a lot of folks in the green.

>> John: Mhm.

>> You know, CrowdStrike, Zscaler, Okta, Microsoft, obviously. CyberArk, SailPoint, Illumio,

CloudFlare, Datadog-- >> John: Yeah.

The spending momentum-- >> Palo Alto, Fortinet. That's where the momentum is.

>> John: These are companies, according to my sources, that are telling me, there was two companies on there. I won't say their names, but you mentioned them. You don't have to say 'em again, can look at the tape. Two of those companies have spending slowdown, per your data, also are going back to their customer base with an inferior product, and charging more. Okay? (chuckling) So, this is what's happening. They're on a death spiral, okay? They're tryin' to pimp up their numbers, so they can get bought out by private equity. So, they got to charge more, for a customer base that doesn't want their product, when you have alternative products on the market, that cost less and perform better. So, this is a classic market transition death spiral. And so you'd going to watch, when spending slowdown, or what what you call deceleration, that's a sign of an implosion. We call it a radical un-assembly. What did Musk call it? What did Musk call it? A... (laughing)

>> Strategic ambiguity--

>> When SpaceX blew up? (Sarbjeet laughing) "Rapid un-assembly!" (laughs)

>> A rapid plan deceleration, or something? Or, disaggregation?

>> Brendan can help us out with this.

>> Okay, we can-- >> Rapid?

>> We can't talk about these things, in the absence of Cloud. So today, two Cloud players, earnings today.

Microsoft-- >> Dave: Yeah, what's out?

>> Okay, Microsoft grew at 20, 27%. Actually fell to 27%, growth, from 31.

>> Dave: Okay, so 27.

>> Yeah, it's not bad! >> Dave: Not bad.

>> I thought, I thought it would be the--

>> Well, and who else announced? Google--

>> It was called a rapid, it was called "a rapid unscheduled disassembly." That is the term, that Elon Musk PR team used, when Spacex--

>> Dave: You're talking Azure?

>> Azure actually grew at a seven, 27%.

>> 27. >> It fell from 21.

>> And what, what was Google?

>> (chuckles) Let's take a look at the Google one.

>> So remember, you remember,

while you're looking that up. >> Yeah, yeah.

>> So, what happens is, Google will report, Google Cloud, but not GCP.

>> Yeah. >> And then, they'll make statements about GCP. And they used to say GCP grew, you know, significantly more than Google Cloud.

So-- >> Sarbjeet: So, Google--

>> Guys, let's, we got to wrap it up right there. We got a clock. Five o'clock's, hard stop. Sarbjeet, thanks for coming on.

>> Thank you. >> Dave.

>> Oh, bummer, okay.

>> Google did, actually, a little lower.

>> What was the number?

>> It was 7.45 billion, versus 7.49. So, it was lower than--

>> 7.45?

>> Versus 7.49.

>> John: You got 30 seconds, to finish that point.

>> So you basically--

>> Bottom line, last 30 seconds. What do you got?

>> So listen, Cloud decelerating growth. And word is, Amazon's going to come in next quarter, 10% people are forecasting. But, as we talked about, they're going to customers, being proactive, lockin' in the long-term value. That's their play.

>> And you see the same, for security.

>> I think Cloud is slowing down. But, it's faster, still faster than on-prem. And the the security, it changes the security posture. And a lot of companies, which used to provide on-prem security, they need to rethink their--

>> All right, that's day two. We are here, in the Broadcast Alley. The top publications come here. Of course, we're the last ones. We're going to go to the last second. Everyone else has left early, to go to happy hour. Not theCUBE. We will do whatever it takes, to get that story. Check our podcast out. Check out the breaking analysis. We'll go to the last second possible, to get the stories to bring to you. Keep watching theCUBE. We'll be back tomorrow, for day three! Thanks for watching. (mellow music)

theCUBE Insights with Sarbjeet Johal

(soft, upbeat music)

>> Sarbjeet: Good to see you, John.

>> Yeah, good to see you John. I mean, Sarbjeet. (Sarbjeet laughing) Good to see you too, John! Haven't seen you all day!

>> You can just call me another name, if you want. (Dave laughing) So Sarbjeet, you and I were on the floor. We checked out the Palo Alto Networks, Tenable, all the top booths. It's packed.

>> Dave: Floor's unbelievable!

So... >> 4,000-plus, I'm hearing, right?

>> And they have divided, like normally they do, like on the south

and in the west side, right? >> The money's flowing here.

>> So, those two halls and in between those few sort of cubes, you can call it.

>> Dave: It's like wallpaper!

>> Yeah.

>> Dave: All those small startups!

>> Few vendors, in between. They are benefiting from it.

>> You know, that used to not be the case! It used to be empty, in between north and south. And now, it's just full.

>> That wasn't connected before. That was not connected. It's only one little tunnel on the other side. Now, they blew it up, open.

>> Sarbjeet: For the last two times I was here, like it was connected. But, there were vendors there.

>> There were, okay. >> There were vendors. And FBI, I saw FBI, and NSA there as well. So, like, there are country-specific areas. Spain is there, big presence.

>> Let's get in, we don't have a lot of time.

I want to get into the media. >> Yeah, sure.

That's good. >> You guys are the analysts.

I'll ask the question. >> Yeah.

>> What do you think is the most important story that you've seen here, in day two, Dave and Sarbjeet?

in the signature, yet. >> John: Yet, yet.

>> Yet. >> John: The key word's yet.

>> Yet is the operative word.

>> John: What's your thoughts, on the most important analysis?

>> Sarbjeet: Yeah, I think "yet", that's a key word right there. Like, for how long do have ChatGPT out, like couple of months, right?

>> You mean covering their tracks?

>> (chuckles) Yes!

>> We saw the Coinbase news. Crypto's not going to go down. We know that.

>> Sarbjeet: I'm in the--

>> So, you're saying, you're saying crypto's dead.

>> Not dead. But, it will gradually, sort of, go down. Even the stable coins are suffering.

>> Let me, let me ask you a different question. Will Bitcoin, 10 years from now, have a larger or smaller market cap?

>> Smaller.

>> Yeah, I would, here, what do you want to bet? If I'm still around? (Sarbjeet laughing) We'll bet a nice dinner.

>> Nice dinner! Yeah, that's good.

>> The loser has to pay, in crypto!

and/or, you know, audio. >> Yeah, but that's ChatGPT.

>> Yeah. >> Right? There's going to be other foundation models, that perhaps, you know, are going to be able to solve that.

>> Yeah, yeah.

>> Sarbjeet: Yes.

>> So, the hackers probably had their hands on it, at least six-to-eight months earlier. At least, some of the primitives, on the foundation models.

>> Dave: You heard what I said, to Wendy Whitmore. I said, "AI was invented, in November 2022."

(Dave chuckling) >> No, no. Actually, it has been there for a time!

>> (chuckling) Of course, I'm teasing.

So, we heard that. >> No question, yeah.

>> Dave: Well--

>> On XDR! At least, CrowdStrike's SDR package.

>> Sarbjeet: Yeah--

>> Dave: Inertia is a tough thing to move. But yeah, I mean, I think there is

disruption coming. >> So, what are the signs, what are the signs, that people aren't going to make it?

>> Well, the narrative right now, is you guys, Silicon Valley, growth capital is dried up. Right?

And so, you're saying-- >> John: Not for security.

>> Well, but the numbers show that--

>> John: Well, I mean it's--

>> Dave: You know, C rounds are down.

>> No-- >> John: It's not gratuitous drinking from the trough. It's still funding, good funding.

>> I think the AI-- >> Dave: Okay, and then, let me just finish this up. And then, will it come back, in the form of AI, for cyber? And is that going to be the disruptive?

>> I think the big players cannot be taken down, because they're part of the ecosystem. The medium-size, like second tier players, they are in danger. Yeah.

The big players-- >> Like, who? Like, who's a big player?

>> Big players, are like, Google--

>> Oh yeah, they'll never be taken down.

>> They have Mandiant.

Microsoft has had-- >> But, you know, Tenable is a big player. They're a whale.

>> Yeah, yeah.

>> Palo Alto Network's a whale.

>> But, yeah, yeah.

>> Biostrike's a whale.

>> Yeah, Palo Alto Network is--

>> Splunk's a whale, technically.

>> I think, Splunk, I think, has--

>> All I'm saying,

all I'm saying-- >> Sarbjeet: I think that--

>> Sarbjeet: But, but in the bad--

>> Or, the whale will buy them out, and take it over.

>> Dave: I mean that's, look, it basically, virtually, every Israeli company in this space, where they're some of the most innovative problem solvers in the world, they all end up getting acquired.

>> Yes, yeah. >> Right? I mean, look at guys at Iguazio, right? You remember, "We're take over there!" We used to challenge 'em on that. Of course, they end up getting acquired.

Because-- >> John: Who bought them?

>> I forget. (John and Dave laughing)

>> Sarbjeet: Okay. By the way, Israelis do security, that nobody else does in the world.

>> Yeah, 'cause they were born with security. It's in their DNA. It's from day one.

>> I actually, I,

when I was working at AMC-- >> McKinsey bought Iguazio, right? Interesting. So, there's a case of McKinsey, transitioning into more of a software company.

>> Sensor's doing some acquisitions, too.

>> Sorry to interrupt.

>> This is the classic Cube conversation, we've had Dave, so many times. Organic versus acquisition. You know, you grow organically, or you go outside.

their integration thing. >> John: Yeah, yeah.

>> You know, that's a PE play. And so, I don't count them out.

>> John: Mm.

>> Yeah. >> Right? And you flip that. There's a lot of folks in the green.

>> John: Mhm.

>> You know, CrowdStrike, Zscaler, Okta, Microsoft, obviously. CyberArk, SailPoint, Illumio,

CloudFlare, Datadog-- >> John: Yeah.

The spending momentum-- >> Palo Alto, Fortinet. That's where the momentum is.

>> Strategic ambiguity--

>> When SpaceX blew up? (Sarbjeet laughing) "Rapid un-assembly!" (laughs)

>> A rapid plan deceleration, or something? Or, disaggregation?

>> Brendan can help us out with this.

>> Okay, we can-- >> Rapid?

>> We can't talk about these things, in the absence of Cloud. So today, two Cloud players, earnings today.

Microsoft-- >> Dave: Yeah, what's out?

>> Okay, Microsoft grew at 20, 27%. Actually fell to 27%, growth, from 31.

>> Dave: Okay, so 27.

>> Yeah, it's not bad! >> Dave: Not bad.

>> I thought, I thought it would be the--

>> Well, and who else announced? Google--

>> It was called a rapid, it was called "a rapid unscheduled disassembly." That is the term, that Elon Musk PR team used, when Spacex--

>> Dave: You're talking Azure?

>> Azure actually grew at a seven, 27%.

>> 27. >> It fell from 21.

>> And what, what was Google?

>> (chuckles) Let's take a look at the Google one.

>> So remember, you remember,

while you're looking that up. >> Yeah, yeah.

>> So, what happens is, Google will report, Google Cloud, but not GCP.

>> Yeah. >> And then, they'll make statements about GCP. And they used to say GCP grew, you know, significantly more than Google Cloud.

So-- >> Sarbjeet: So, Google--

>> Guys, let's, we got to wrap it up right there. We got a clock. Five o'clock's, hard stop. Sarbjeet, thanks for coming on.

>> Thank you. >> Dave.

>> Oh, bummer, okay.

>> Google did, actually, a little lower.

>> What was the number?

>> It was 7.45 billion, versus 7.49. So, it was lower than--

>> 7.45?

>> Versus 7.49.

>> John: You got 30 seconds, to finish that point.

>> So you basically--

>> Bottom line, last 30 seconds. What do you got?

>> And you see the same, for security.