theCUBE + NYSE Wired: Crypto Trailblazers | Kenneth Goodwin, Jeanensis Capital Markets

Kenneth Goodwin, Jeanensis Capital Markets

In this insightful episode of the Crypto Trailblazers series hosted by theCUBE, Mike Cagney of Figure Markets sits down with analysts from theCUBE Research to discuss groundbreaking advancements in blockchain technology and their implications for the finance sector. This video is part of the NYSE Wired digital event, aimed at bridging the gap between Silicon Valley and Wall Street by integrating technology and finance. Cagney, an eminent figure in fintech, shares expertise on the transformative role of blockchain in financial markets during this interview. Conducted by seasoned analysts at theCUBE, the discussion delves into Figure’s innovative contributions, including their blockchain-native loan origination and securitization process. He outlines how Figure leverages blockchain to achieve cost reductions, enhanced security and improved liquidity in financial transactions. Key takeaways from the interview highlight insights on the evolution of the Web3 ecosystem, such as the emergence of stablecoins as pivotal to transaction processes and the rise of decentralized finance (DeFi). Oltsik states these developments signify a shift towards democratizing finance, wherein truth and transparency are foundational. The conversation concludes with a look at Figure’s pioneering efforts in creating a new financial marketplace utilizing blockchain technology. #CryptoTrailblazers #FigureMarkets #BlockchainInnovation #Web3 #NYEWired #BlockchainFinance #DecentralizedFinance #Fintech #Stablecoins Find more SiliconANGLE news and analysis https://siliconangle.com/. Follow theCUBE's wall-to-wall event coverage https://siliconangle.com/events/ Learn about the latest theCUBE events https://www.thecube.net/ 00:00 - Intro 00:05 - Emerging Innovations in Financial Technology and Market Dynamics 02:45 - Key Elements in Financial Ecosystem Dynamics 06:20 - Blockchain: Truth and Transformation 09:39 - Shaping the Future: Innovations in Financial Markets and Stablecoin Integration 13:15 - Enabling the Future: Navigating Disruptions in Banking and Lending 16:51 - Exploring Opportunities and Building Confidence in the Blockchain Ecosystem

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More from theCUBE + NYSE Wired: Crypto Trailblazers

Kenneth Goodwin

Managing Partner & Independent Board Advisor

Jeanesis

play_circle_outline Institutions Double Down on Tokenization as CLARITY Act Advances amid Bitcoin and Ethereum Price Volatility

play_circle_outline Tether buying gold; move toward commodity-backed stablecoins and fractionalized gold tokens

play_circle_outline Silver rally as a runoff effect from gold accumulation and commodity flows

play_circle_outline IPO activity spotlighting crypto custodial and infrastructure firms like BitGo

play_circle_outline NYSE launching 24/7 trading platform for digital assets using distributed ledger tech

play_circle_outline FinTech convergence: tech roadmaps blending with finance focus on risk, durability, returns

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Kenneth Goodwin, Jeanensis Capital Markets

Kenneth Goodwin

Managing Partner & Independent Board Advisor Jeanesis

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John Furrier

>> Hello, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. We are here at theCUBE's East Coast studio, the NYSE, part of the NYSE Wired program. theCUBE original, of course. We have our West Coast studio in Palo Alto, connecting Wall Street and Silicon Valley. All the tech covers, the capital markets and technology are converging. We have CUBE alumni back on, Ken Goodwin. He's also kind of a CUBE contributor, analyst. He's got a lot going on. Managing partner, independent board advisor, Jeanensis Capital Markets. Ken, you are seeing everything. Great to see you again.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Great to see you again, John. Always great to be back home on they exchange.

John Furrier

>> The sun is shining in the crypto market, but it's cold as hell in New York City these days.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> It's cold in crypto too.

John Furrier

>> It's a little bit of a cold front going through. Eth is down, Bitcoin's down, but I'm very confident that the volatility swings are just the nature of the game. Twenty One capital comment was, "The volatility's the key, just ride the volatility." But the game is still on, on the infrastructure side. We saw Cantor Fitzgerald come in here. They're doing a lot of work on the area. They're bullish on this market as well because the mainstreaming of real world assets on-chain is happening.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> That's right.

John Furrier

>> This is something that you're doing a lot of work in, you're covering, you're participating in, advising. Where are we on this? Because I think there's a lot's changed. And I say sunny, I mean the regulatory climate. Last time you were on, you gave a great perspective around some of the regulatory things in progress. What's the big change in the past few months in crypto that you can name?

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Well, you hit it best. I don't even think I need to have this interview.

John Furrier

>> Give me some details.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> I mean, we have the CLARITY Act that they're still trying to pass in Congress, that's very critical because that established capital markets' guidance and regulations. But also, you got to get credit to the exchange, the New York Stock Exchange, that they have the 24-7 trading platform that they're doing. And that's very critical in terms of digital assets and crypto. So, the first avenue is digitization. And you know very well, John, about the whole digitization avenue, right? Data aggregation, how you make and automate systems. And in the back of that is what's happened in Davos recently about tokenization. Are we able to tokenize both the bonds, right? So, when we look at the basic balance sheet, the assets, real world assets, and we think of real world assets, tangible assets, intangible assets. How do we tokenize that? How do we tokenize the credit side of that? And that's the lending facility. And then, on the back-end of that, how do we tokenize the equity side? So, just piece it all together. A whole tokenized exchange system, that's what's going to happen next.

John Furrier

>> Yeah, it's always a lull before the exponential curve kicks up and you're starting to see that now a little bit, and you mentioned some of the pricing, but we're still seeing the momentum. There's signals. You mentioned the backend as it comes together. What are some of those things that people should pay attention to that you're seeing and other insiders are seeing around some of those data points? Because a lot's changed, you mentioned a few of them, but it always lulls before it kicks. It's always like the kickup on the exponential curve. We're looking at those signs. What do you see? What's the things people should look at?

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Well, Bitcoin, I mean, just look at the price of Bitcoin. It's been dropping recently. I personally think Bitcoin's going to drop to 50 and then eventually go up. But here's why. This is leading on to something else that's happening behind the scenes. And what's happening behind the scenes is this whole Tether gold trade, which is really going on. So, now Tether is buying up all the gold, or at least a large percentage of gold around the world. And someone asked me recently, "Where they putting that gold at, right? They got a whole bunch of gold." So, now you got to run out to Switzerland to find out where this gold is at, but that's very critical. So, the idea is that now that your trade is being backed up by gold and now commodities. So, this stablecoin backing up commodities is one thing to look for. And another thing I'm hearing a lot that most people don't realize, when I sit at the table for private equity and I sit at the table with family offices, the flow of funds is moving away from the AI applications and more into energy. Now, that's a very critical area, John. The energy avenue of this. Because everything that you know with Bitcoin mining and AI mining requires a level of energy. And if you don't have an energy infrastructure, you can't support anything. And there's a bigger picture why energy works, but we can talk about that a little bit more.

John Furrier

>> Let's put a pin in the energy, I want to come to that. But you mentioned the gold, Tether. What was the rationale behind the Tether move? I mean, my off-the-cuff comment was it's like a meme stock, but if they're not memes, it's real billionaires buying the gold. Is there an intent behind that? Is it to do the backing? What's the word on the street?

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Wow, boy. If I tell you the truth behind this, man, I'm not sure they would invite me back.

John Furrier

>> Are they just bogarting all the gold because they're rich and they have the cash? I mean, the Tether guys came in on theCUBE, so they're very cool. They're techies. I mean, they're cool people. I can see them going, "Hmm, why don't we just grab the gold while we can?" I mean, not gold heist because they're buying it. It's not like it's a heist. It's just like-

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Right, you're right. It's not a heist, but they're buying it with the notion and the idea that eventually that you can take the physical gold, right? So, you can take physical gold and you can fractionalize that gold, but you can also at the same time do trade and you can do payments and settlements. So, it's moving towards payments and settlement. It's also moving towards treasury, but it's also moving away from our reliance on treasury securities. So, the idea of a treasury bonds and treasury notes, so getting out of that position, it's going to go back to the old gold standards.

John Furrier

>> So, it's kind of a hedge.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> It's a hedge.

John Furrier

>> It's a hedge really, but ultimately, it's a safe hedge because gold is gold.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Well, gold is gold-

John Furrier

>> Gold is gold....

Kenneth Goodwin

>> but gold, it has fungibility. Gold has use, right? There's usability behind gold, right? So, we need gold to go to space. We need gold to retain energy. We need gold actually as a commodity to offer value. So, there's volume in gold. So, they're smart in doing this. They're understanding that the actual digitization going to tokenization side requires this change to happen and it has to move away from fiat.

John Furrier

>> All right. So, I have to ask you on the deer in the headlights stock analogy where the market movement herds-

Kenneth Goodwin

>> , John.

John Furrier

>> The herd moves. Silver moves too. So, obviously, that's a mineral, that helps. Was silver a direct result of some of the Tether things? Is that just more of a, the wind was blowing that way and so people jumped on the silver bandwagon?

Kenneth Goodwin

>> I think so. I think what you're finding now... And when you look at the stablecoin, the whole idea of a stablecoin, you got stablecoin geared towards for fiat, stablecoin gears towards for commodities. One of those commodities happens to be silver, so silver's a runoff from gold. So, that whole silver trade is basically out of gold. So, the fact that you have gold volume, now everyone else has put it into silver. So, silver one up to 5K and I think it's just swapped down a little bit.

John Furrier

>> So, a lot going on. The IPOs are coming. We saw BitGo. We were on the floor, streaming that event and working with the team. A lot of good action. I'm bullish on BitGo because they have a tech team, the CEO, founder, ex-Netscape, my generation.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> My generation-

John Furrier

>> Our generation.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Our generation.

John Furrier

>> In our 40s, so we can speak to that. But they think like a tech company. This has been the common theme of our Crypto Trailblazers. And I think you hit on this last time, but I want to recycle about what's changed. The mainstreaming of the stack from a tech perspective is having ripple effects in finance. What's your view on this, where we are? Any new data, opinions, changed?

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Well, today you saw Canon Fitzgerald. I mean, that's the idea. The idea is that let's move in that direction. I think companies are starting to figure out who we need to hire, the human capital, what infrastructure we need to have. If we don't have the infrastructure, maybe we acquire a company that can actually do that work. So, they got it. They understand that they need to go in this direction. If they don't go in this direction, then their competitors are going to probably do it themselves. So, the whole structure of FinTech coming together, we say FinTech, what is FinTech? We got that finance side and that technology side. The technology side has always been ahead, but now you're starting to realize that the old stodgy finance companies are saying, "Hey, in order for us to be real players in this industry, we have to make these structural changes." And that's exactly what you can see with the tech stocks and everything else. So, you're absolutely right.

John Furrier

>> Yeah. I mean, the FinTech definition really is evolved. I think the last time we talked about this too is that technology's the market. The market we're covering here, trades going on behind us.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Well, the whole trading floor is now it's more technical. You still got people screaming and yelling, but yet the board is still technical.

John Furrier

>> The board is all NVIDIA, Palantir, NVIDIA. There's not one normal company... Normal company? Non-tech company on there. I think tech's the new normal. I mean, look on the put side, all tech.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Right. But we have concentration risk. We have this concentration risk across the asset classes. We have to be very careful about that. So, when we say concentration risk, let's say we take NASDAQ, the 500, or even take the FAANGs, right? They own about a good 70%, 80% of the market cap. So, what's going to happen is what if they were to completely just lose those shares? It's going to have to run-off effect on the other companies in the exchange. So, we have to be very cautious about that concentration risk with the large caps. We need to continue to bring on these companies, these emerging companies. So, eventually one day, if they don't stay private forever, they can list on exchanges, like the New York Stock Exchange and speak on your TV show.

John Furrier

>> Yeah, exactly. And also the AI productivity will hopefully help some of that runoff risk.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Exactly.

John Furrier

>> As AI gets infused, as digital currency comes online, that'll be a boon to the other stocks. You mentioned the NYSE and their bet on the 24-7 trade. I want to talk about that because that was a big announcement a couple of weeks ago. They announced the intention for trading. Explain the news and what does it mean?

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Oh, it means everything. I mean, the fact that they took time to invest in a system to actually do a 24-7 trade using digital ledger technology. I'm going to have you dance with me on this because I don't know completely what they did, but they finally did it. But the fact that they actually are offering a 24-7 trade is significant. And I think also at the same time that they're able to do this with digital assets out of venture too. So, the idea that they're going to tokenize or have digital assets to trade 24-7 is, to me, it's the next wave. Now, that's no different, and not to cut you off here a little bit, but I used to work at the Tokyo Stock Exchange. The Tokyo Stock Exchange also has an automated system. Now, is it 24-7 as the way the New York Stock Exchange is? Not yet, but it could be because it has the infrastructure for it. So, it has the digital infrastructure to support that.

John Furrier

>> Yeah, and the market forces will dictate that. But I think it's important to note that the NYSE is owned by ICE, International Continental Exchange, which is in the data business. I mean, they're progressive.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Very progressive.

John Furrier

>> So, the old NYSE that people might think my grandfather's NYSE is now owned by a progressive leader who leans in and says, "Hey, if there's going to be data feeds, on-chain activity, why not get in that business?" It's a smart play.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Well, your data is gold, right? So, your data is gold. I mean, how you use data aggregation is critical because it establishes, as you know, platformatization, with platformatization comes the application component of that, and with that comes the product side. And the product side is those tokenizations that we all talk about here about from BlackRock. How do you tokenize these assets? You need data. And that goes right back into what Elon Musk was saying in terms of actually doing these data centers in space, right?

John Furrier

>> Yeah. I mean, I think having the kind of management team that can see that around the corner is going to be great for the NYSE's parent company. In that vein, I want to ask you, you do a lot of advisory work with a lot of the big names, the Cantor Fitzgeralds of the world, the big institutions. What's the psychology right now? I mean, looking at the market, Trump's still in office, we got a crypto tzar, we've got the regulation, it's making its way through the system. What's the sentiment? What's the psychology of the big boys, if you will? I mean, you mentioned they're leaning in, what's the conversations in those boardrooms? Take us through. You have to name names. Reveal some secrets.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> I won't reveal names, but it's all about timing. Let's do it now before things change. I mean, that is the psychology. We don't know what's going to actually happen next. So, the time period is now. It's now or never. If you don't do it now, you may miss the next opportunity because we don't know what's going to happen in the next cycle. So, right now, it's all about getting the right people, human capital, right resources, the right infrastructure, the right knowledge base, I mean, the right subject matter expertise, all those things. And of course, capital, right? You need the right capital to actually execute that. So, right now is the time. And if you miss this period between three to six, nine months, you don't know what's going to happen next year. You may have some kind of geopolitical action that may occur, that may have some impact in the marketplace, and you won't be able to have the liquidity to support that.

John Furrier

>> Yeah. And that's a great point. I love that. I never looked at it that way. Yesterday I was at the NYSE, they had a partnership media day and I gave a talk on a fireside chat with Kevin Hawkins and Brian Baumann talking about the Wired brand that we created. And my talk talked about what Wired's about, NYSE Wired. I want to get your reaction to this because technology people speak in terms of roadmaps, architecture velocity, that's the Silicon Valley way, it's the tech way. In finance, it's risk, durability, and returns. Those are coming together. So, share your thoughts on how the big banks, the big players are taking that Wall Street speak and mindset, risk, durability, returns, blending it with roadmaps, architecture, because we're seeing an infrastructure changeover happening. You're in the middle of it.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Oh, by far. I mean, at Jeanensis, we saw that almost eight years ago. I mean, we saw that with, and I don't want to name names, but Goldman Sachs. Goldman Sachs for the last-

John Furrier

>> Name names.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> .

John Furrier

>> They're all doing it.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Right. But that CTO became a prominent figure at that organization. So, that says a lot about in terms of technology and roadmaps. So, you can use a roadmap to build the infrastructure. So, it changes the way as to how you do your buy side, yourself, side of your trade, your operations, your first line, your second line and third line of defense and operations. The risk component is never going to change. Now, what's going to happen with risk, you're going to have to add on risk. So, as you digitize your operations, the other risk may occur. You may have cybersecurity risk, data security risk, data integrity risk, all these risks may happen. So, that's where you need to have the understanding of both sides. And I think that fusion is very more critical now. If we don't have that now as a major bank or financial institution, you're going to have a FinTech firm. So, I'll give you an example. Who to say NVIDIA doesn't come out and create their own bank? It has enough capital to do this.

John Furrier

>> Yeah. They're giving away the capital and they're banking everybody right now.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Exactly. So, who do-

John Furrier

>> They're already doing it.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Right. So, who to say Tether doesn't turn around and say, "Hey, we want to get our financial holding corp license and create our own bank because we have the technical knowhow."

John Furrier

>> And they have the gold too now.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> And they have the gold now. So, not only do we have the means of doing the capital of doing it, we have the technology of doing it. So, technology is leading the ways to driving force. And if you're not with it, you're going to miss it and you don't want to miss it. So, I'd rather be on a rocket ship with Elon going to Mars.

John Furrier

>> Yeah, yeah. I love the FinTech conversions because it is happening and the people who see it early get the wins. You did mention a few names. I will say that now that we have a great environment for people to get it out now, the stacks and the tech roadmaps and whatnot, it also builds on a lot of the IT fluency on the banks. I mean, they've always been the number one buyer of technology. So, check, they've been there, done that. And I think in the previous regime, they were hiding in the shadows and not really coming out. They didn't really stop. I mean, everyone I talked to at JPMorgan, Goldman, all these big institutions, they were working on it. They just didn't tell anyone.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Well, they were working on it for... I mean, if you go from a historical standpoint, you took at the Federal Reserve Bank Act and you look in terms of regulation Y, subpar J, which is really the groundwork for venture capitalism. So, you're right. Banks, they were buying up data centers, they were buying up operations that supported the bank. And then, it shifted away and they started to look more into other areas, but now they're starting to get more into technology more. Now, how do we actually buy technology companies and incorporate that into our operations? And they have no choice to do that in order for them to survive.

John Furrier

>> Ken, I really appreciate you coming on. One thing I do love about you, not only are you in all the great conversations, you also teach young people at NJIT, New Jersey Institute of Technology. What's the young generation like these days? I always ask this question because you're there, you're seeing the fresh blood, the fresh minds at work. What are some of the things you're seeing from the new... Because they're the ones who are going to build the apps. As the CLARITY Act comes online, as the institutional stuff and regulatory stuff settles quickly, I think there's going to be a tsunami of apps coming.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Oh, by far.

John Furrier

>> Just obvious.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Oh, by far.

John Furrier

>> But it's timing, to your point. What's the young minds doing now? What's on the mind of the young person out there watching, or even just in a dorm room beavering away?

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Well, I learned many years ago that surround yourself with bright young minds. And I learned that not just by teaching at NJIT, but I also sit on the board for the Ronald E. McNair program, which is science, technology, engineer and electricity or energy. I'm going to say STEM, agricultural, AI and math. So, they answer that question, John, a lot of the young generation, they're getting into fundamentals, but they're also building apps and they're using the AI tools to learn the languages. So, they're learning in the languages and they're building their own stories and their own data lakes. I had this conversation yesterday. I didn't know what data lakes were and I'm like, "What is a data lake?"

John Furrier

>> We have a data lake. We have a video data lake.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Right. But it's interesting to see how they're building data lakes around certain topics and it's happening on time and these are young-minded individuals who are doing it. And I'm sitting back and saying, "Wow, this is like artificial cognitive intelligence." So, now it's taking it to another level. It's reasoning. It's using data to create reasoning to solve a problem. So, I see where this young generation's really got the technology, building the platforms behind that. And of course, the monetization is very important. How do you monetize that? How do you actually-

John Furrier

>> It reminds me of the '70s and '80s when computer science was just getting hold and the computer industry was starting. I was in elementary school at that time and high school, then college. There were hard problems to solve. And if you look at today, I just interviewed General Fusion, there's AI tough discussions, crypto. There are a lot of technical physics problems. You mentioned energy. There's so much going on that if you're a young mind, this is a lot to bite into intellectually, problem solving. So, you start to see people realize that, "Oh, a lot of this other stuff I'm learning in school, I can have resource for that," Copilot or whatever. But you're starting to see people think differently around what was once a PhD track. Like, "Okay, I got to go to school for 10 million years and then do a thesis." Now, it's like, "Oh, my God, I can get PhD-level capabilities now."

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Exactly. And no disrespect to going to college, but you can do this learning online. If you're good at something and you're really, really good at it, so you want to learn about nanotechnology or any other subject matter, you can go online and get those skills and still create and be co-creative, which is the ultimate goal. How do you become the best co-creator to solve a problem and to come up with a solution? And I think in this day and age with AI, if you use it correctly, you can come up with a great solution and still be able to offer value. And that value, of course, can create some capital and then you can grow your companies. And this is what you're seeing is people are realizing that there's a lot of issues and challenges out there. What's the best way to solve it? And they're using technology to solve it. Now, you still need the bankers. You still need the bankers.

John Furrier

>> Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, the other thing that I was talking about at the partnership event was our philosophy at theCUBE, which is, we target the builders, entrepreneurs, people solving problems, but once you do it, you need an operator and you need money. So, you got to have the builders, operators and the investors. And I think that's where the confluence here in New York and in Silicon Valley are coming together and we're seeing that on real-world assets, that's going physical AI. So, the trend is collapsing of disciplines and function and then physical, real world and digital coming together.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Exactly.

John Furrier

>> On both fronts.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> On both fronts.

John Furrier

>> The two hottest trends right now is AI and crypto, all need energy.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Right, exactly.

John Furrier

>> All have tokens but they're different reasons-

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Well, the energy is the key. I mean, it's the key. I mean, you have AI mining, Bitcoin mining, right? So, you have to have good source of energy. Now, the question is, do you use traditional energy to support that? Or do you find another solution, another way to capture energy outside of your way of normally doing that? And you find the aether, right? I'm a big fan of Nikolai Tesla, right? The idea that energy is around us, everything's vibrational. So, can you capture that energy source and apply that to automotives and moving or at home in terms of electricity? So, how do you store that energy and use that somewhere else? Now, Elon Musk, actually, he's capturing this.

John Furrier

>> Yeah.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> He's smart enough to-

John Furrier

>> Well, and he's an entrepreneur. I just interviewed, again, Greg Twinney, CEO of General Fusion, working on the first commercial fusion application, substation-like capabilities, no waste.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> That's amazing.

John Furrier

>> And they're on a path to 2030 of a product. And guess who's an investor in that? Jeff Bezos. Guess who's the COO of the company? ex-Blue Origin executive. So, Bezos, space. Musk, energy, space. So, space is weaving into the narrative. Closer to the sun, it's cold in space.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Well, it's cold in space, but-

John Furrier

>> There's cooling....

Kenneth Goodwin

>> there's also a lot of minerals and there's a lot of energy out there that we haven't tapped. So, I see where he's going at in space and space technology. In fact, here at the New York Stock Exchange, I think they're going to have a space technology summit. Last year I went to that one last year. It was amazing to be at that summit, but you see the amount of companies that are producing and servicing the BlueOrchards, the SpaceX of the world. That's another conversation when he does his IPO, right?

John Furrier

>> Yeah.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> So, his IPO is going to be almost 1.5-

John Furrier

>> He just bought xAI, Starlink is going to go public, probably on the NYSE.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> About a trillion, I believe, in terms of valuation.

John Furrier

>> A massive valuation.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Massive valuation. I mean, but again, it's going upwards to space. So, when I look at him, I look at him in terms of three-six-nine mentality. Well, what's his three, six, nine months or years? And he's got that three-six-nine mentality where he's basically saying, "These are the things that's going to happen in the future." So, I tend to follow him and I follow Jeff Bezos.

John Furrier

>> They got great instincts. They see around corners. That's the secret to... Ken, great to have you on theCUBE again. Great to see you.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Great to be back.

John Furrier

>> All right. Getting all the action here on the Crypto Trailblazers here on the theCUBE, sharing that with you. It is a changing market, the mainstreaming of energy into these new applications that are going to be game-changing, new problems to solve and new opportunities. We're doing our part to bring those stories to you. Thanks for watching.

Kenneth Goodwin, Jeanensis Capital Markets

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John Furrier

>> Hello, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. We are here at theCUBE's East Coast studio, the NYSE, part of the NYSE Wired program. theCUBE original, of course. We have our West Coast studio in Palo Alto, connecting Wall Street and Silicon Valley. All the tech covers, the capital markets and technology are converging. We have CUBE alumni back on, Ken Goodwin. He's also kind of a CUBE contributor, analyst. He's got a lot going on. Managing partner, independent board advisor, Jeanensis Capital Markets. Ken, you are seeing everything. Great to see you again.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Great to see you again, John. Always great to be back home on they exchange.

John Furrier

>> The sun is shining in the crypto market, but it's cold as hell in New York City these days.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> It's cold in crypto too.

John Furrier

>> It's a little bit of a cold front going through. Eth is down, Bitcoin's down, but I'm very confident that the volatility swings are just the nature of the game. Twenty One capital comment was, "The volatility's the key, just ride the volatility." But the game is still on, on the infrastructure side. We saw Cantor Fitzgerald come in here. They're doing a lot of work on the area. They're bullish on this market as well because the mainstreaming of real world assets on-chain is happening.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> That's right.

John Furrier

>> This is something that you're doing a lot of work in, you're covering, you're participating in, advising. Where are we on this? Because I think there's a lot's changed. And I say sunny, I mean the regulatory climate. Last time you were on, you gave a great perspective around some of the regulatory things in progress. What's the big change in the past few months in crypto that you can name?

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Well, you hit it best. I don't even think I need to have this interview.

John Furrier

>> Give me some details.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> I mean, we have the CLARITY Act that they're still trying to pass in Congress, that's very critical because that established capital markets' guidance and regulations. But also, you got to get credit to the exchange, the New York Stock Exchange, that they have the 24-7 trading platform that they're doing. And that's very critical in terms of digital assets and crypto. So, the first avenue is digitization. And you know very well, John, about the whole digitization avenue, right? Data aggregation, how you make and automate systems. And in the back of that is what's happened in Davos recently about tokenization. Are we able to tokenize both the bonds, right? So, when we look at the basic balance sheet, the assets, real world assets, and we think of real world assets, tangible assets, intangible assets. How do we tokenize that? How do we tokenize the credit side of that? And that's the lending facility. And then, on the back-end of that, how do we tokenize the equity side? So, just piece it all together. A whole tokenized exchange system, that's what's going to happen next.

John Furrier

>> Yeah, it's always a lull before the exponential curve kicks up and you're starting to see that now a little bit, and you mentioned some of the pricing, but we're still seeing the momentum. There's signals. You mentioned the backend as it comes together. What are some of those things that people should pay attention to that you're seeing and other insiders are seeing around some of those data points? Because a lot's changed, you mentioned a few of them, but it always lulls before it kicks. It's always like the kickup on the exponential curve. We're looking at those signs. What do you see? What's the things people should look at?

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Well, Bitcoin, I mean, just look at the price of Bitcoin. It's been dropping recently. I personally think Bitcoin's going to drop to 50 and then eventually go up. But here's why. This is leading on to something else that's happening behind the scenes. And what's happening behind the scenes is this whole Tether gold trade, which is really going on. So, now Tether is buying up all the gold, or at least a large percentage of gold around the world. And someone asked me recently, "Where they putting that gold at, right? They got a whole bunch of gold." So, now you got to run out to Switzerland to find out where this gold is at, but that's very critical. So, the idea is that now that your trade is being backed up by gold and now commodities. So, this stablecoin backing up commodities is one thing to look for. And another thing I'm hearing a lot that most people don't realize, when I sit at the table for private equity and I sit at the table with family offices, the flow of funds is moving away from the AI applications and more into energy. Now, that's a very critical area, John. The energy avenue of this. Because everything that you know with Bitcoin mining and AI mining requires a level of energy. And if you don't have an energy infrastructure, you can't support anything. And there's a bigger picture why energy works, but we can talk about that a little bit more.

John Furrier

>> Let's put a pin in the energy, I want to come to that. But you mentioned the gold, Tether. What was the rationale behind the Tether move? I mean, my off-the-cuff comment was it's like a meme stock, but if they're not memes, it's real billionaires buying the gold. Is there an intent behind that? Is it to do the backing? What's the word on the street?

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Wow, boy. If I tell you the truth behind this, man, I'm not sure they would invite me back.

John Furrier

>> Are they just bogarting all the gold because they're rich and they have the cash? I mean, the Tether guys came in on theCUBE, so they're very cool. They're techies. I mean, they're cool people. I can see them going, "Hmm, why don't we just grab the gold while we can?" I mean, not gold heist because they're buying it. It's not like it's a heist. It's just like-

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Right, you're right. It's not a heist, but they're buying it with the notion and the idea that eventually that you can take the physical gold, right? So, you can take physical gold and you can fractionalize that gold, but you can also at the same time do trade and you can do payments and settlements. So, it's moving towards payments and settlement. It's also moving towards treasury, but it's also moving away from our reliance on treasury securities. So, the idea of a treasury bonds and treasury notes, so getting out of that position, it's going to go back to the old gold standards.

John Furrier

>> So, it's kind of a hedge.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> It's a hedge.

John Furrier

>> It's a hedge really, but ultimately, it's a safe hedge because gold is gold.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Well, gold is gold-

John Furrier

>> Gold is gold....

Kenneth Goodwin

>> but gold, it has fungibility. Gold has use, right? There's usability behind gold, right? So, we need gold to go to space. We need gold to retain energy. We need gold actually as a commodity to offer value. So, there's volume in gold. So, they're smart in doing this. They're understanding that the actual digitization going to tokenization side requires this change to happen and it has to move away from fiat.

John Furrier

>> All right. So, I have to ask you on the deer in the headlights stock analogy where the market movement herds-

Kenneth Goodwin

>> , John.

John Furrier

>> The herd moves. Silver moves too. So, obviously, that's a mineral, that helps. Was silver a direct result of some of the Tether things? Is that just more of a, the wind was blowing that way and so people jumped on the silver bandwagon?

Kenneth Goodwin

>> I think so. I think what you're finding now... And when you look at the stablecoin, the whole idea of a stablecoin, you got stablecoin geared towards for fiat, stablecoin gears towards for commodities. One of those commodities happens to be silver, so silver's a runoff from gold. So, that whole silver trade is basically out of gold. So, the fact that you have gold volume, now everyone else has put it into silver. So, silver one up to 5K and I think it's just swapped down a little bit.

John Furrier

>> So, a lot going on. The IPOs are coming. We saw BitGo. We were on the floor, streaming that event and working with the team. A lot of good action. I'm bullish on BitGo because they have a tech team, the CEO, founder, ex-Netscape, my generation.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> My generation-

John Furrier

>> Our generation.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Our generation.

John Furrier

>> In our 40s, so we can speak to that. But they think like a tech company. This has been the common theme of our Crypto Trailblazers. And I think you hit on this last time, but I want to recycle about what's changed. The mainstreaming of the stack from a tech perspective is having ripple effects in finance. What's your view on this, where we are? Any new data, opinions, changed?

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Well, today you saw Canon Fitzgerald. I mean, that's the idea. The idea is that let's move in that direction. I think companies are starting to figure out who we need to hire, the human capital, what infrastructure we need to have. If we don't have the infrastructure, maybe we acquire a company that can actually do that work. So, they got it. They understand that they need to go in this direction. If they don't go in this direction, then their competitors are going to probably do it themselves. So, the whole structure of FinTech coming together, we say FinTech, what is FinTech? We got that finance side and that technology side. The technology side has always been ahead, but now you're starting to realize that the old stodgy finance companies are saying, "Hey, in order for us to be real players in this industry, we have to make these structural changes." And that's exactly what you can see with the tech stocks and everything else. So, you're absolutely right.

John Furrier

>> Yeah. I mean, the FinTech definition really is evolved. I think the last time we talked about this too is that technology's the market. The market we're covering here, trades going on behind us.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Well, the whole trading floor is now it's more technical. You still got people screaming and yelling, but yet the board is still technical.

John Furrier

>> The board is all NVIDIA, Palantir, NVIDIA. There's not one normal company... Normal company? Non-tech company on there. I think tech's the new normal. I mean, look on the put side, all tech.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Right. But we have concentration risk. We have this concentration risk across the asset classes. We have to be very careful about that. So, when we say concentration risk, let's say we take NASDAQ, the 500, or even take the FAANGs, right? They own about a good 70%, 80% of the market cap. So, what's going to happen is what if they were to completely just lose those shares? It's going to have to run-off effect on the other companies in the exchange. So, we have to be very cautious about that concentration risk with the large caps. We need to continue to bring on these companies, these emerging companies. So, eventually one day, if they don't stay private forever, they can list on exchanges, like the New York Stock Exchange and speak on your TV show.

John Furrier

>> Yeah, exactly. And also the AI productivity will hopefully help some of that runoff risk.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Exactly.

John Furrier

>> As AI gets infused, as digital currency comes online, that'll be a boon to the other stocks. You mentioned the NYSE and their bet on the 24-7 trade. I want to talk about that because that was a big announcement a couple of weeks ago. They announced the intention for trading. Explain the news and what does it mean?

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Oh, it means everything. I mean, the fact that they took time to invest in a system to actually do a 24-7 trade using digital ledger technology. I'm going to have you dance with me on this because I don't know completely what they did, but they finally did it. But the fact that they actually are offering a 24-7 trade is significant. And I think also at the same time that they're able to do this with digital assets out of venture too. So, the idea that they're going to tokenize or have digital assets to trade 24-7 is, to me, it's the next wave. Now, that's no different, and not to cut you off here a little bit, but I used to work at the Tokyo Stock Exchange. The Tokyo Stock Exchange also has an automated system. Now, is it 24-7 as the way the New York Stock Exchange is? Not yet, but it could be because it has the infrastructure for it. So, it has the digital infrastructure to support that.

John Furrier

>> Yeah, and the market forces will dictate that. But I think it's important to note that the NYSE is owned by ICE, International Continental Exchange, which is in the data business. I mean, they're progressive.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Very progressive.

John Furrier

>> So, the old NYSE that people might think my grandfather's NYSE is now owned by a progressive leader who leans in and says, "Hey, if there's going to be data feeds, on-chain activity, why not get in that business?" It's a smart play.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Well, your data is gold, right? So, your data is gold. I mean, how you use data aggregation is critical because it establishes, as you know, platformatization, with platformatization comes the application component of that, and with that comes the product side. And the product side is those tokenizations that we all talk about here about from BlackRock. How do you tokenize these assets? You need data. And that goes right back into what Elon Musk was saying in terms of actually doing these data centers in space, right?

John Furrier

>> Yeah. I mean, I think having the kind of management team that can see that around the corner is going to be great for the NYSE's parent company. In that vein, I want to ask you, you do a lot of advisory work with a lot of the big names, the Cantor Fitzgeralds of the world, the big institutions. What's the psychology right now? I mean, looking at the market, Trump's still in office, we got a crypto tzar, we've got the regulation, it's making its way through the system. What's the sentiment? What's the psychology of the big boys, if you will? I mean, you mentioned they're leaning in, what's the conversations in those boardrooms? Take us through. You have to name names. Reveal some secrets.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> I won't reveal names, but it's all about timing. Let's do it now before things change. I mean, that is the psychology. We don't know what's going to actually happen next. So, the time period is now. It's now or never. If you don't do it now, you may miss the next opportunity because we don't know what's going to happen in the next cycle. So, right now, it's all about getting the right people, human capital, right resources, the right infrastructure, the right knowledge base, I mean, the right subject matter expertise, all those things. And of course, capital, right? You need the right capital to actually execute that. So, right now is the time. And if you miss this period between three to six, nine months, you don't know what's going to happen next year. You may have some kind of geopolitical action that may occur, that may have some impact in the marketplace, and you won't be able to have the liquidity to support that.

John Furrier

>> Yeah. And that's a great point. I love that. I never looked at it that way. Yesterday I was at the NYSE, they had a partnership media day and I gave a talk on a fireside chat with Kevin Hawkins and Brian Baumann talking about the Wired brand that we created. And my talk talked about what Wired's about, NYSE Wired. I want to get your reaction to this because technology people speak in terms of roadmaps, architecture velocity, that's the Silicon Valley way, it's the tech way. In finance, it's risk, durability, and returns. Those are coming together. So, share your thoughts on how the big banks, the big players are taking that Wall Street speak and mindset, risk, durability, returns, blending it with roadmaps, architecture, because we're seeing an infrastructure changeover happening. You're in the middle of it.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Oh, by far. I mean, at Jeanensis, we saw that almost eight years ago. I mean, we saw that with, and I don't want to name names, but Goldman Sachs. Goldman Sachs for the last-

John Furrier

>> Name names.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> .

John Furrier

>> They're all doing it.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Right. But that CTO became a prominent figure at that organization. So, that says a lot about in terms of technology and roadmaps. So, you can use a roadmap to build the infrastructure. So, it changes the way as to how you do your buy side, yourself, side of your trade, your operations, your first line, your second line and third line of defense and operations. The risk component is never going to change. Now, what's going to happen with risk, you're going to have to add on risk. So, as you digitize your operations, the other risk may occur. You may have cybersecurity risk, data security risk, data integrity risk, all these risks may happen. So, that's where you need to have the understanding of both sides. And I think that fusion is very more critical now. If we don't have that now as a major bank or financial institution, you're going to have a FinTech firm. So, I'll give you an example. Who to say NVIDIA doesn't come out and create their own bank? It has enough capital to do this.

John Furrier

>> Yeah. They're giving away the capital and they're banking everybody right now.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Exactly. So, who do-

John Furrier

>> They're already doing it.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Right. So, who to say Tether doesn't turn around and say, "Hey, we want to get our financial holding corp license and create our own bank because we have the technical knowhow."

John Furrier

>> And they have the gold too now.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> And they have the gold now. So, not only do we have the means of doing the capital of doing it, we have the technology of doing it. So, technology is leading the ways to driving force. And if you're not with it, you're going to miss it and you don't want to miss it. So, I'd rather be on a rocket ship with Elon going to Mars.

John Furrier

>> Yeah, yeah. I love the FinTech conversions because it is happening and the people who see it early get the wins. You did mention a few names. I will say that now that we have a great environment for people to get it out now, the stacks and the tech roadmaps and whatnot, it also builds on a lot of the IT fluency on the banks. I mean, they've always been the number one buyer of technology. So, check, they've been there, done that. And I think in the previous regime, they were hiding in the shadows and not really coming out. They didn't really stop. I mean, everyone I talked to at JPMorgan, Goldman, all these big institutions, they were working on it. They just didn't tell anyone.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Well, they were working on it for... I mean, if you go from a historical standpoint, you took at the Federal Reserve Bank Act and you look in terms of regulation Y, subpar J, which is really the groundwork for venture capitalism. So, you're right. Banks, they were buying up data centers, they were buying up operations that supported the bank. And then, it shifted away and they started to look more into other areas, but now they're starting to get more into technology more. Now, how do we actually buy technology companies and incorporate that into our operations? And they have no choice to do that in order for them to survive.

John Furrier

>> Ken, I really appreciate you coming on. One thing I do love about you, not only are you in all the great conversations, you also teach young people at NJIT, New Jersey Institute of Technology. What's the young generation like these days? I always ask this question because you're there, you're seeing the fresh blood, the fresh minds at work. What are some of the things you're seeing from the new... Because they're the ones who are going to build the apps. As the CLARITY Act comes online, as the institutional stuff and regulatory stuff settles quickly, I think there's going to be a tsunami of apps coming.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Oh, by far.

John Furrier

>> Just obvious.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Oh, by far.

John Furrier

>> But it's timing, to your point. What's the young minds doing now? What's on the mind of the young person out there watching, or even just in a dorm room beavering away?

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Well, I learned many years ago that surround yourself with bright young minds. And I learned that not just by teaching at NJIT, but I also sit on the board for the Ronald E. McNair program, which is science, technology, engineer and electricity or energy. I'm going to say STEM, agricultural, AI and math. So, they answer that question, John, a lot of the young generation, they're getting into fundamentals, but they're also building apps and they're using the AI tools to learn the languages. So, they're learning in the languages and they're building their own stories and their own data lakes. I had this conversation yesterday. I didn't know what data lakes were and I'm like, "What is a data lake?"

John Furrier

>> We have a data lake. We have a video data lake.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Right. But it's interesting to see how they're building data lakes around certain topics and it's happening on time and these are young-minded individuals who are doing it. And I'm sitting back and saying, "Wow, this is like artificial cognitive intelligence." So, now it's taking it to another level. It's reasoning. It's using data to create reasoning to solve a problem. So, I see where this young generation's really got the technology, building the platforms behind that. And of course, the monetization is very important. How do you monetize that? How do you actually-

John Furrier

>> It reminds me of the '70s and '80s when computer science was just getting hold and the computer industry was starting. I was in elementary school at that time and high school, then college. There were hard problems to solve. And if you look at today, I just interviewed General Fusion, there's AI tough discussions, crypto. There are a lot of technical physics problems. You mentioned energy. There's so much going on that if you're a young mind, this is a lot to bite into intellectually, problem solving. So, you start to see people realize that, "Oh, a lot of this other stuff I'm learning in school, I can have resource for that," Copilot or whatever. But you're starting to see people think differently around what was once a PhD track. Like, "Okay, I got to go to school for 10 million years and then do a thesis." Now, it's like, "Oh, my God, I can get PhD-level capabilities now."

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Exactly. And no disrespect to going to college, but you can do this learning online. If you're good at something and you're really, really good at it, so you want to learn about nanotechnology or any other subject matter, you can go online and get those skills and still create and be co-creative, which is the ultimate goal. How do you become the best co-creator to solve a problem and to come up with a solution? And I think in this day and age with AI, if you use it correctly, you can come up with a great solution and still be able to offer value. And that value, of course, can create some capital and then you can grow your companies. And this is what you're seeing is people are realizing that there's a lot of issues and challenges out there. What's the best way to solve it? And they're using technology to solve it. Now, you still need the bankers. You still need the bankers.

John Furrier

>> Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, the other thing that I was talking about at the partnership event was our philosophy at theCUBE, which is, we target the builders, entrepreneurs, people solving problems, but once you do it, you need an operator and you need money. So, you got to have the builders, operators and the investors. And I think that's where the confluence here in New York and in Silicon Valley are coming together and we're seeing that on real-world assets, that's going physical AI. So, the trend is collapsing of disciplines and function and then physical, real world and digital coming together.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Exactly.

John Furrier

>> On both fronts.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> On both fronts.

John Furrier

>> The two hottest trends right now is AI and crypto, all need energy.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Right, exactly.

John Furrier

>> All have tokens but they're different reasons-

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Well, the energy is the key. I mean, it's the key. I mean, you have AI mining, Bitcoin mining, right? So, you have to have good source of energy. Now, the question is, do you use traditional energy to support that? Or do you find another solution, another way to capture energy outside of your way of normally doing that? And you find the aether, right? I'm a big fan of Nikolai Tesla, right? The idea that energy is around us, everything's vibrational. So, can you capture that energy source and apply that to automotives and moving or at home in terms of electricity? So, how do you store that energy and use that somewhere else? Now, Elon Musk, actually, he's capturing this.

John Furrier

>> Yeah.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> He's smart enough to-

John Furrier

>> Well, and he's an entrepreneur. I just interviewed, again, Greg Twinney, CEO of General Fusion, working on the first commercial fusion application, substation-like capabilities, no waste.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> That's amazing.

John Furrier

>> And they're on a path to 2030 of a product. And guess who's an investor in that? Jeff Bezos. Guess who's the COO of the company? ex-Blue Origin executive. So, Bezos, space. Musk, energy, space. So, space is weaving into the narrative. Closer to the sun, it's cold in space.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Well, it's cold in space, but-

John Furrier

>> There's cooling....

Kenneth Goodwin

>> there's also a lot of minerals and there's a lot of energy out there that we haven't tapped. So, I see where he's going at in space and space technology. In fact, here at the New York Stock Exchange, I think they're going to have a space technology summit. Last year I went to that one last year. It was amazing to be at that summit, but you see the amount of companies that are producing and servicing the BlueOrchards, the SpaceX of the world. That's another conversation when he does his IPO, right?

John Furrier

>> Yeah.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> So, his IPO is going to be almost 1.5-

John Furrier

>> He just bought xAI, Starlink is going to go public, probably on the NYSE.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> About a trillion, I believe, in terms of valuation.

John Furrier

>> A massive valuation.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Massive valuation. I mean, but again, it's going upwards to space. So, when I look at him, I look at him in terms of three-six-nine mentality. Well, what's his three, six, nine months or years? And he's got that three-six-nine mentality where he's basically saying, "These are the things that's going to happen in the future." So, I tend to follow him and I follow Jeff Bezos.

John Furrier

>> They got great instincts. They see around corners. That's the secret to... Ken, great to have you on theCUBE again. Great to see you.

Kenneth Goodwin

>> Great to be back.

John Furrier

>> All right. Getting all the action here on the Crypto Trailblazers here on the theCUBE, sharing that with you. It is a changing market, the mainstreaming of energy into these new applications that are going to be game-changing, new problems to solve and new opportunities. We're doing our part to bring those stories to you. Thanks for watching.