KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2024 | Christophe Sauthier & Chris Aniszczyk | CNCF

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More from KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2024

Chris Aniszczyk

CTO

Cloud Native Computing Foundation

Christophe Sauthier

Cloud Native Training & Certification Lead

Cloud Native Computing Foundation

CNCF continues evolving with expanded training, certification and community growth efforts

If the rich attendance at the recent KubeCon Europe event is any indication, general interest in cloud-native initiatives is soaring, drawing in both seasoned professionals and newcomers.But with over 184 individual projects under its umbrella, how is the Cloud Native Computing Foundation evolving its training and certification approach to stay abreast of the times?“We’ve trained, I think, over 200-300,000 people at least [that] have gone through our certifications,” said Chris Aniszczyk (pictured, right), chief technology officer of the CNCF. “But since we’ve grown so much, we now have a lot more technology. Outside of Kubernetes, we have OpenTelemetry

play_circle_outline The Significance of CloudNative Training and Certification: Focus on Kubernetes and Other Key Technologies in Collaboration with Endorsed Content Program

play_circle_outline Recognition of community members through KTP, ambassador, and maintainer programs

play_circle_outline Interest in AI and AI-related certifications

play_circle_outline Keeping Pace with the Evolving CloudNative Ecosystem: Observability, Best Practices, and Kubesternauts Ambassador Program

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Christophe Sauthier & Chris Aniszczyk | CNCF

Chris Aniszczyk

CTO Cloud Native Computing Foundation

Christophe Sauthier

Cloud Native Training & Certification Lead Cloud Native Computing Foundation

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(bright music)

>> Hello and welcome back to Paris where we're at, KubeCon CloudnativeCon EU. Glad to have you hanging in there for this afternoon. We're, you know, wall to wall coverage, and right now we got some of the CNCF's top people here to really talk about the community and how it's really actually expanding, growing, and bringing new people into that tent. So I'm really happy to have Christophe, who's leading up training CloudNative training and certification, and Chris, who's the CTO of the CNCF as well. Along with Dustin. My, you know, compadre for this week is really helping us dig into this stuff. So let's kick this off. You guys really, it's such an impressive conference. Over 12,000 people here. So many new people here as well. I mean, I think it's something like a 50 50 split-

>> Chris: 51%.

>> Yeah, 51%. Which is incredible because I think that just keeps showing how much interest, and I think especially the CloudNative side of things. I said it, I said Kubernetes, maybe I was a little pedantic about it and said it was solved. But it's matured. I mean, 10 years old coming up this year. How are things changing from a certification perspective? Because I think there's still people who are looking to go beyond just Kubernetes, but need the basics, but then need to go on how, how are things really changing? I hear there's new partnerships being lined up and things of that nature.

>> Yeah. You know, definitely. So let's kind of break this question into two parts. So in terms of, you know, what are people kind of looking for and what we're doing, you know, obviously we're at 184 projects now. We're a lot more than Kubernetes. Kubernetes for sure is a mature technology that almost like every website device thing in the world is somehow using behind the scenes, right. And we've done, we've trained, I think over 200, 300,000 people at least have gone through our, you know, certifications on that. But since we've grown so much, we now have a lot more technology. You know, outside of Kubernetes, we have open telemetry. You need stuff to observe things you have, you need to secure things. You know, we have like Falcon, so we're basically investing a lot in helping build training and certification for those communities. It's kind of, you can kind of think it of as like day one versus day two type thing. Day one, get everyone up trained and certifying in Kubernetes day two, they had to figure out how to observe things and you know, how to secure things and so on. That's kind of where the investment is and a lot of stuff we've been doing ourselves, which has been great. But, you know, we are an open source organization. We like to work with partners and companies and collaborate. And so we've basically evolved and launched essentially a new endorsed content and partnership program for training that basically is working with folks that provide courses, training. And, you know, we're proud to basically work with Udemy, one of the largest training providers out there. And they're kind of our first, you know, pilot in this, you know, program. We plan to kind of work with others, you know, down the line on this.

>> Yeah. And this training investment is something that help us to put the spotlight on some of our community members too. Because we want to recognize the people from our community who are really involved and in both training and the community aspects. So we have some criteria at the CNCF where we will just put the label on those persons. So we need to be KTP, you need to be part of the KTP program, which is the Kubernetes training partner, or an ambassador or a maintainer if you want to be eligible to be endorsed. So that's really a way for us to show some gratitude also to those persons who are really involved in our community.

>> Yeah, there's a lot of stuff out there if you especially like go on YouTube and you know, random Skype. But you know, being able to highlight the work that is actually being done by our community, our ambassadors and maintainers, that's generally the stuff they produce. They generally know what they're talking about.

>> Yeah, you're talking about about content. I mean this is community contributed content. It's really impressive. It's quite a library of educational material out there now.

>> Yeah. I think that to me was a big piece that I was glad you guys were coming on because to me and to the people sitting at home having worked at Amazon and built a service over there, you read Google. I mean, we, we understand how difficult it can be and to get up and going, but then once you're up and going, you're not doing Kubernetes to do Kubernetes, you're building an application on top of it. And I think that with, you know, the elephant in the room, which is AI and how those workloads are really being put onto Kubernetes and with all the new projects that are coming in. That seems like there's got to be a ton of interest in that as well.

>> Yeah, definitely. I mean, we have some new AI training. We have some AI projects in CNCF so we have like new cube flow training that we produced. We're debating potentially of like, you know, it is a pretty good idea of what we know like a CloudNative engineer is. You got to know certain skills. But what, what does it mean to be a certified CloudNative AI engineer? What is that? So we're, we're debating whether we may go into that to territory, but we're not there yet. Right now we're just kind of just focusing on catching up on the backlog of all these kind of huge projects that we have in CNCF that we just haven't served well in terms of producing training and certification for them. If you kind of look at our top five projects in terms of contribution and community size, obviously Kubernetes, right? Then you have open telemetry. Then you have basically Backstage, Argo and you know, it's pretty much like these are all massive, like top 100 in the world open source projects and we just haven't had time until maybe I hired some people to help me out in the organization to kind of keep things, you know, moving. But we have now the hotel certs coming, Argo, bunch of training on all the stuff.

>> Argo is live for a few days now. So anybody can take an Argo certification, which is a huge step because like you said, people will have deployed Kubernetes, but you need to deploy your application on top of that. And we all know that today GitHubs and all the movements around that is something that almost everybody embraced. So Argo is perfect for that. But we also launched an open GitHub certification. If you just want to know the basics, not tied to any product, take this one. We also launched Cilium certification. Networking is something which is obviously present everywhere, but you will discover that Helium is way more than that thanks to EBPF. That we put a lot of emphasis in Chicago, the last KubeCon. So we just launched that. It's always also available for anyone. And finally we had a certification on security.

Security is a- >> Good, yeah.

>> A broad topic. And you know that.

>> Yeah, tell us more.

>> And we wanted to have something which could be an entry level certification on security. Obviously we are, we had for a long time CKS, which is our,

let's say, >> Advanced.

>> Advanced security certification. But we wanted to have something which will be a way for people to embrace that, to start to feel what it is. And so we just launched KCSA. We're really proud of that, really happy with that. And so all those new four certification are now available to anyone and we are quite excited about that.

>> Yeah. And there's like two things like, you know, if you kind of, you look at like the traditional CKS, it has the worst pass rate of all of our sort of, I think it's like 20 something percent. Like people fail all the time. It's too hard, right. And so if we're going to really, truly grow our community, I think we need to provide a little bit more welcoming, like stepping stones. So that's why, a lot of cloud providers do this. They have their associate level kind service. And so that we're foundational, whatever they call it. That's kind of what we're kind of trying to do, trying to help people have a good time first experience versus just-

>> No one goes to university and starts off in, you know, senior level 400 level classes. You work your way up to that, right? That's one thing-

>> That's a perfect comparison for the entry level, what we call the associate level. We aim at someone who has between six months and two years of experience. So not the senior one, right. Sophomore.

>> Right.

>> So. >> Yeah, yeah.

>> I think I've seen how the set of courses now sort of inter operate and so, you know, both the vertical stacking as well as now the scale out stacking, having being able to add Argo to your resume along with, you know, some security and you know, tie this all together. Maybe some Kubernetes at the base, you know. But you've got a roadmap I guess, for how you're looking at the entire educational program.

>> Yeah. So like Chris mentioned for certification, we are, and for training, we are always working on new stuff. We are working, like you said, on hotel. So we will have soon one day. Cannot tell a pre date. But we were, we were working on a open telemetry associate certification, also on the Backstage one. Because this is something that has been really trendy for many organization. How can I help my developer to actually work in a, in efficient manner and to spread the documentation and, okay. So we will do that. We are working on that. And we are also working on (unintelligible), which is related to security. So those are topics that we are working on for certification. And we also have many trainings.

>> Yeah, I just was wondering because it was such a big theme earlier today of sustainability. And that one, I mean, I actually related to what Deutsche Bank talked about with how it was super complex for them to figure out the carbon footprint. Is that a place that you're looking to focus as well?

>> We have a Finops related kind of trail. Like it depends like, Finops generally means like cost efficiency, but they're also adding carbon footprints. 'cause it makes sense. Some people may want to optimize purely on cost, others may want to optimize on carbon. So it's definitely something we're considering. It's not in the like immediate plans, but as these technologies kind of evolve and grow, for sure we're going to add it to our portfolio. And the challenging thing here is, I think a lot of people don't realize when we develop a certification, we have multiple companies involved. Maintainers, usually it's a bit of a dance. 'Cause you know, it's not just biasing one vendor. We truly bring in the community. And sometimes these vendors don't, you know, they compete in the market, right. And they don't always, you know, get along. So it's like sometimes these things take longer to develop than we initially planned, but the end product is really, really good at the end.

>> Well speaking of that evolution and the timeframe, tell us a little bit about the changes going on in, some of the certifications.

>> So we just announced at the beginning of the year that we will be changing the validity period of all our certification. Right now is still the case all our certification of valid for three years, that will change on the 1st of April. We will move back to two years. So obviously some people are complaining and we can hear that. But the reason we are doing that is that we are in such moving world. Every technology is moving so fast. I mean, who was talking about AI two years ago? Not a lot. Open AI maybe. They were were. But not a lot. And so we are moving back to two years for two years for the validity. And I will take you an example for Kubernetes. Three years ago the default and Kubernetes was, Docker was still Docker, it was not the case two years ago. So we think it made a lot of sense to just move back to two years. And actually that was the first validity period we had when CKA was launched. It was valid for two years only. And we said, okay, maybe we can just extend that. Well we're moving back to that because we realize it's moving too fast.

>> It's still an evolving landscape.

>> Yeah. It's still evolving so fast. You know, it was a good idea to say, okay, maybe now that Kubernetes is more mature, we can extend that to three years. But actually it continue to grow and to move and to evolve and which is obviously a great a thing. And you mentioned that. And we are stressing out that the CloudNative ecosystem is not only Kubernetes. So maybe Kubernetes is not evolving as much as Argo today, but since we try to be aligned for all our certification, everything back to two years, so that we are allowing us to keep the flow and keep the bit of all our projects.

>> And is is part of your certifications helping the people who go through 'em and understand it to better understand? 'Cause some of the things you brought up, you know, open telemetry and there's a whole number in the observability space for Prometheus and what is it the other one, Yeager and other things. Is it how they fit together in some of these certifications? And that's why you're what, you're the kind of, when you take a look and you step back, I look at it and go, okay, which one do I use for where? And I want the person, if they're coming through and getting certified to know that. Is that part of the goals out of that?

>> Some of them like involve like maybe best practices with the projects. If you kind of take the CK you know, A or CKD definitely you are using different kind of, you know, projects, especially outside of purely Kubernetes. So there's some of that discussion. But then it like, you know, if you're doing the CKAA, it's like, well, which CNI should you use? Which one are you going to bias toward? And it's a challenge, and we've changed that over the years. CTF used to not have really any CNA CNI related projects out of the spec. And now that we have things like Cilium and so on, kind of makes sense that that becomes the default in the certification.

>> Absolutely. I had a meeting this morning about the refreshing about all our Kubernetes certification. So since we move in the next few, let's say weeks to months, but we are reflecting those changes and those evolution obviously. Like we are doing in our training, our training are updated regularly. So we need to do that.

>> And there's a fun new title that one can strive for now. Right. What's this?

>> I mean it was kind of a, honestly, it came from kind of our community, right? So, you know, I haven't built training certification programs before, right? So it was kind of a space a little bit new to me. And we started to have this very enthusiastic community and it was like, hey can you do something like the AWS golden jacket program? Like what is that? Right? And then, you know, kind of look it up, it's like, oh, it's like someone passes all, you know, the Amazon certs, they get this crazy fancy golden jacket. I'm like, not a bad idea. So we kind of talked about it and like, can we do something similar? And we're like, okay, maybe if someone passes all the Kubernetes things, we'll do something special. And we came up eventually with Cubes for Knots, which is a new title, and they're going to get a nice jacket, maybe a space helmet.

>> I was going to say, you got to have the helmet. You got to go helmet.

>> So someone tells you where to procure a very, very nice space helmet out there in the audience. Well please let me know.

>> We'll put that out. That a good challenge to put out.

>> That would be good. And we're excited. And we're basically, these folks are going to, these are our official training and certification education ambassadors, right? And they're going to be treated like-

>> And there are people who already have collected the entire stamp, they blacked out their bingo card.

>> Yeah, yeah. And we want to recognize them.

>> Yeah, of course.

>> We want us to be able to recognize them, but also anyone from the community to recognize them.

>> And it is a community, Anthony. It's not just a transaction. Someone takes a certification. These are folks that are up leveling their career and we actually want to treat 'em like ambassadors. We're going to hold monthly meetings, get feedback on how to improve things. And it's just, you know, we are an open source community at the end of the day.

>> And we want to reflect that into the certification And yeah, into the certification because, you know, we will share our success but also our failure. And people get together. You get some bonds because you fail the same way. So that's why we want to reflect too. And we will continue to work on that over the next months and here, because this is really, we both come from the community. We also share the same-

>> You too, so you know.

>> Share some lots of community too together and-

>> Absolutely. It's a fun, it's a fun community to be a part of. Who do you think is going to be our first Kubesternaut we're going to interview on the show? No, but we, we have to have them on.

>> Chris: The space helmet. Let's get space helmet first.

>> But let's make it for, you know, Salt Lake. We're going to have somebody on in Salt Lake that would be awesome. One or two of them on. That would be fantastic. But hey, thanks for coming on board. You know, again it's always good. And I mean this is, I'm passionate about this because I think it's huge for getting that big tent and bringing people in and involving them. And you're at the pointy end of that spear. And I really appreciate you being com completely transparent about this.

>> Thank you. And if you ever swing by and look at the job board, there's a lot of companies looking at hiring folks. So we got to train up everyone here.

>> Maybe they're going to have a requirement in there Kubesternauts, or something like that. You're now going to create another-

>> The first job post I see. Expecting to have someone, a Kubesternaut.

>> A nice bottle of wine, I think.

>> I want to see a picture of that, please.

>> We'll figure that out too. But so thank you for coming on board.

>> Thanks for having us. Always a pleasure, Chad. And enjoy Paris and see ya in Salt Lake.

>> Absolutely see ya in Salt Lake. And see you guys just in a minute when we come back here from KubeCon CloudnativeCon EU here in Paris live, stay tuned to the Kube, the leader in tech news and analysis. Thanks. (bright music)

Christophe Sauthier & Chris Aniszczyk | CNCF

search

(bright music)

>> Hello and welcome back to Paris where we're at, KubeCon CloudnativeCon EU. Glad to have you hanging in there for this afternoon. We're, you know, wall to wall coverage, and right now we got some of the CNCF's top people here to really talk about the community and how it's really actually expanding, growing, and bringing new people into that tent. So I'm really happy to have Christophe, who's leading up training CloudNative training and certification, and Chris, who's the CTO of the CNCF as well. Along with Dustin. My, you know, compadre for this week is really helping us dig into this stuff. So let's kick this off. You guys really, it's such an impressive conference. Over 12,000 people here. So many new people here as well. I mean, I think it's something like a 50 50 split-

>> Chris: 51%.

>> Yeah, 51%. Which is incredible because I think that just keeps showing how much interest, and I think especially the CloudNative side of things. I said it, I said Kubernetes, maybe I was a little pedantic about it and said it was solved. But it's matured. I mean, 10 years old coming up this year. How are things changing from a certification perspective? Because I think there's still people who are looking to go beyond just Kubernetes, but need the basics, but then need to go on how, how are things really changing? I hear there's new partnerships being lined up and things of that nature.

>> Yeah. You know, definitely. So let's kind of break this question into two parts. So in terms of, you know, what are people kind of looking for and what we're doing, you know, obviously we're at 184 projects now. We're a lot more than Kubernetes. Kubernetes for sure is a mature technology that almost like every website device thing in the world is somehow using behind the scenes, right. And we've done, we've trained, I think over 200, 300,000 people at least have gone through our, you know, certifications on that. But since we've grown so much, we now have a lot more technology. You know, outside of Kubernetes, we have open telemetry. You need stuff to observe things you have, you need to secure things. You know, we have like Falcon, so we're basically investing a lot in helping build training and certification for those communities. It's kind of, you can kind of think it of as like day one versus day two type thing. Day one, get everyone up trained and certifying in Kubernetes day two, they had to figure out how to observe things and you know, how to secure things and so on. That's kind of where the investment is and a lot of stuff we've been doing ourselves, which has been great. But, you know, we are an open source organization. We like to work with partners and companies and collaborate. And so we've basically evolved and launched essentially a new endorsed content and partnership program for training that basically is working with folks that provide courses, training. And, you know, we're proud to basically work with Udemy, one of the largest training providers out there. And they're kind of our first, you know, pilot in this, you know, program. We plan to kind of work with others, you know, down the line on this.

>> Yeah. And this training investment is something that help us to put the spotlight on some of our community members too. Because we want to recognize the people from our community who are really involved and in both training and the community aspects. So we have some criteria at the CNCF where we will just put the label on those persons. So we need to be KTP, you need to be part of the KTP program, which is the Kubernetes training partner, or an ambassador or a maintainer if you want to be eligible to be endorsed. So that's really a way for us to show some gratitude also to those persons who are really involved in our community.

>> Yeah, there's a lot of stuff out there if you especially like go on YouTube and you know, random Skype. But you know, being able to highlight the work that is actually being done by our community, our ambassadors and maintainers, that's generally the stuff they produce. They generally know what they're talking about.

>> Yeah, you're talking about about content. I mean this is community contributed content. It's really impressive. It's quite a library of educational material out there now.

>> Yeah. I think that to me was a big piece that I was glad you guys were coming on because to me and to the people sitting at home having worked at Amazon and built a service over there, you read Google. I mean, we, we understand how difficult it can be and to get up and going, but then once you're up and going, you're not doing Kubernetes to do Kubernetes, you're building an application on top of it. And I think that with, you know, the elephant in the room, which is AI and how those workloads are really being put onto Kubernetes and with all the new projects that are coming in. That seems like there's got to be a ton of interest in that as well.

>> Yeah, definitely. I mean, we have some new AI training. We have some AI projects in CNCF so we have like new cube flow training that we produced. We're debating potentially of like, you know, it is a pretty good idea of what we know like a CloudNative engineer is. You got to know certain skills. But what, what does it mean to be a certified CloudNative AI engineer? What is that? So we're, we're debating whether we may go into that to territory, but we're not there yet. Right now we're just kind of just focusing on catching up on the backlog of all these kind of huge projects that we have in CNCF that we just haven't served well in terms of producing training and certification for them. If you kind of look at our top five projects in terms of contribution and community size, obviously Kubernetes, right? Then you have open telemetry. Then you have basically Backstage, Argo and you know, it's pretty much like these are all massive, like top 100 in the world open source projects and we just haven't had time until maybe I hired some people to help me out in the organization to kind of keep things, you know, moving. But we have now the hotel certs coming, Argo, bunch of training on all the stuff.

>> Argo is live for a few days now. So anybody can take an Argo certification, which is a huge step because like you said, people will have deployed Kubernetes, but you need to deploy your application on top of that. And we all know that today GitHubs and all the movements around that is something that almost everybody embraced. So Argo is perfect for that. But we also launched an open GitHub certification. If you just want to know the basics, not tied to any product, take this one. We also launched Cilium certification. Networking is something which is obviously present everywhere, but you will discover that Helium is way more than that thanks to EBPF. That we put a lot of emphasis in Chicago, the last KubeCon. So we just launched that. It's always also available for anyone. And finally we had a certification on security.

Security is a- >> Good, yeah.

>> A broad topic. And you know that.

>> Yeah, tell us more.

>> And we wanted to have something which could be an entry level certification on security. Obviously we are, we had for a long time CKS, which is our,

let's say, >> Advanced.

>> Advanced security certification. But we wanted to have something which will be a way for people to embrace that, to start to feel what it is. And so we just launched KCSA. We're really proud of that, really happy with that. And so all those new four certification are now available to anyone and we are quite excited about that.

>> Yeah. And there's like two things like, you know, if you kind of, you look at like the traditional CKS, it has the worst pass rate of all of our sort of, I think it's like 20 something percent. Like people fail all the time. It's too hard, right. And so if we're going to really, truly grow our community, I think we need to provide a little bit more welcoming, like stepping stones. So that's why, a lot of cloud providers do this. They have their associate level kind service. And so that we're foundational, whatever they call it. That's kind of what we're kind of trying to do, trying to help people have a good time first experience versus just-

>> No one goes to university and starts off in, you know, senior level 400 level classes. You work your way up to that, right? That's one thing-

>> That's a perfect comparison for the entry level, what we call the associate level. We aim at someone who has between six months and two years of experience. So not the senior one, right. Sophomore.

>> Right.

>> So. >> Yeah, yeah.

>> I think I've seen how the set of courses now sort of inter operate and so, you know, both the vertical stacking as well as now the scale out stacking, having being able to add Argo to your resume along with, you know, some security and you know, tie this all together. Maybe some Kubernetes at the base, you know. But you've got a roadmap I guess, for how you're looking at the entire educational program.

>> Yeah. So like Chris mentioned for certification, we are, and for training, we are always working on new stuff. We are working, like you said, on hotel. So we will have soon one day. Cannot tell a pre date. But we were, we were working on a open telemetry associate certification, also on the Backstage one. Because this is something that has been really trendy for many organization. How can I help my developer to actually work in a, in efficient manner and to spread the documentation and, okay. So we will do that. We are working on that. And we are also working on (unintelligible), which is related to security. So those are topics that we are working on for certification. And we also have many trainings.

>> Yeah, I just was wondering because it was such a big theme earlier today of sustainability. And that one, I mean, I actually related to what Deutsche Bank talked about with how it was super complex for them to figure out the carbon footprint. Is that a place that you're looking to focus as well?

>> We have a Finops related kind of trail. Like it depends like, Finops generally means like cost efficiency, but they're also adding carbon footprints. 'cause it makes sense. Some people may want to optimize purely on cost, others may want to optimize on carbon. So it's definitely something we're considering. It's not in the like immediate plans, but as these technologies kind of evolve and grow, for sure we're going to add it to our portfolio. And the challenging thing here is, I think a lot of people don't realize when we develop a certification, we have multiple companies involved. Maintainers, usually it's a bit of a dance. 'Cause you know, it's not just biasing one vendor. We truly bring in the community. And sometimes these vendors don't, you know, they compete in the market, right. And they don't always, you know, get along. So it's like sometimes these things take longer to develop than we initially planned, but the end product is really, really good at the end.

>> Well speaking of that evolution and the timeframe, tell us a little bit about the changes going on in, some of the certifications.

>> So we just announced at the beginning of the year that we will be changing the validity period of all our certification. Right now is still the case all our certification of valid for three years, that will change on the 1st of April. We will move back to two years. So obviously some people are complaining and we can hear that. But the reason we are doing that is that we are in such moving world. Every technology is moving so fast. I mean, who was talking about AI two years ago? Not a lot. Open AI maybe. They were were. But not a lot. And so we are moving back to two years for two years for the validity. And I will take you an example for Kubernetes. Three years ago the default and Kubernetes was, Docker was still Docker, it was not the case two years ago. So we think it made a lot of sense to just move back to two years. And actually that was the first validity period we had when CKA was launched. It was valid for two years only. And we said, okay, maybe we can just extend that. Well we're moving back to that because we realize it's moving too fast.

>> It's still an evolving landscape.

>> Yeah. It's still evolving so fast. You know, it was a good idea to say, okay, maybe now that Kubernetes is more mature, we can extend that to three years. But actually it continue to grow and to move and to evolve and which is obviously a great a thing. And you mentioned that. And we are stressing out that the CloudNative ecosystem is not only Kubernetes. So maybe Kubernetes is not evolving as much as Argo today, but since we try to be aligned for all our certification, everything back to two years, so that we are allowing us to keep the flow and keep the bit of all our projects.

>> And is is part of your certifications helping the people who go through 'em and understand it to better understand? 'Cause some of the things you brought up, you know, open telemetry and there's a whole number in the observability space for Prometheus and what is it the other one, Yeager and other things. Is it how they fit together in some of these certifications? And that's why you're what, you're the kind of, when you take a look and you step back, I look at it and go, okay, which one do I use for where? And I want the person, if they're coming through and getting certified to know that. Is that part of the goals out of that?

>> Some of them like involve like maybe best practices with the projects. If you kind of take the CK you know, A or CKD definitely you are using different kind of, you know, projects, especially outside of purely Kubernetes. So there's some of that discussion. But then it like, you know, if you're doing the CKAA, it's like, well, which CNI should you use? Which one are you going to bias toward? And it's a challenge, and we've changed that over the years. CTF used to not have really any CNA CNI related projects out of the spec. And now that we have things like Cilium and so on, kind of makes sense that that becomes the default in the certification.

>> Absolutely. I had a meeting this morning about the refreshing about all our Kubernetes certification. So since we move in the next few, let's say weeks to months, but we are reflecting those changes and those evolution obviously. Like we are doing in our training, our training are updated regularly. So we need to do that.

>> And there's a fun new title that one can strive for now. Right. What's this?

>> I mean it was kind of a, honestly, it came from kind of our community, right? So, you know, I haven't built training certification programs before, right? So it was kind of a space a little bit new to me. And we started to have this very enthusiastic community and it was like, hey can you do something like the AWS golden jacket program? Like what is that? Right? And then, you know, kind of look it up, it's like, oh, it's like someone passes all, you know, the Amazon certs, they get this crazy fancy golden jacket. I'm like, not a bad idea. So we kind of talked about it and like, can we do something similar? And we're like, okay, maybe if someone passes all the Kubernetes things, we'll do something special. And we came up eventually with Cubes for Knots, which is a new title, and they're going to get a nice jacket, maybe a space helmet.

>> I was going to say, you got to have the helmet. You got to go helmet.

>> So someone tells you where to procure a very, very nice space helmet out there in the audience. Well please let me know.

>> We'll put that out. That a good challenge to put out.

>> That would be good. And we're excited. And we're basically, these folks are going to, these are our official training and certification education ambassadors, right? And they're going to be treated like-

>> And there are people who already have collected the entire stamp, they blacked out their bingo card.

>> Yeah, yeah. And we want to recognize them.

>> Yeah, of course.

>> We want us to be able to recognize them, but also anyone from the community to recognize them.

>> And it is a community, Anthony. It's not just a transaction. Someone takes a certification. These are folks that are up leveling their career and we actually want to treat 'em like ambassadors. We're going to hold monthly meetings, get feedback on how to improve things. And it's just, you know, we are an open source community at the end of the day.

>> And we want to reflect that into the certification And yeah, into the certification because, you know, we will share our success but also our failure. And people get together. You get some bonds because you fail the same way. So that's why we want to reflect too. And we will continue to work on that over the next months and here, because this is really, we both come from the community. We also share the same-

>> You too, so you know.

>> Share some lots of community too together and-

>> Absolutely. It's a fun, it's a fun community to be a part of. Who do you think is going to be our first Kubesternaut we're going to interview on the show? No, but we, we have to have them on.

>> Chris: The space helmet. Let's get space helmet first.

>> But let's make it for, you know, Salt Lake. We're going to have somebody on in Salt Lake that would be awesome. One or two of them on. That would be fantastic. But hey, thanks for coming on board. You know, again it's always good. And I mean this is, I'm passionate about this because I think it's huge for getting that big tent and bringing people in and involving them. And you're at the pointy end of that spear. And I really appreciate you being com completely transparent about this.

>> Thank you. And if you ever swing by and look at the job board, there's a lot of companies looking at hiring folks. So we got to train up everyone here.

>> Maybe they're going to have a requirement in there Kubesternauts, or something like that. You're now going to create another-

>> The first job post I see. Expecting to have someone, a Kubesternaut.

>> A nice bottle of wine, I think.

>> I want to see a picture of that, please.

>> We'll figure that out too. But so thank you for coming on board.

>> Thanks for having us. Always a pleasure, Chad. And enjoy Paris and see ya in Salt Lake.

>> Absolutely see ya in Salt Lake. And see you guys just in a minute when we come back here from KubeCon CloudnativeCon EU here in Paris live, stay tuned to the Kube, the leader in tech news and analysis. Thanks. (bright music)