KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2024 | Ignacio Riesgo & Kevin Dubois | Red Hat

Clips
News
More from KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2024

Ignacio Riesgo Pablo

Sr. Director, Developer Marketing & Strategy

Red Hat

Kevin Dubois

Sr. Principal Developer Advocate

Red Hat

Unlocking developer potential: Red Hat’s cure for cognitive load headache

Making developers’ lives easier has become a necessity in the current enterprise world because issues, such as the cognitive load headache, have to be addressed since they trigger low productivity.Nevertheless, attaining this objective is not a walk in the park, because the stack is becoming more difficult. This is why Red Hat Inc. is delving deeper into developers’ needs through UX research, as well as offering easy-to-use tools, such as Podman Desktop, which presents a graphical interface for the seamless management of pods, images and containers, according to Ignacio Riesgo (pictured, right), senior director of developer marketing and strategy at Red Hat

play_circle_outline The Crucial Role of Observability in Measuring Server Sustainability and Power Usage

play_circle_outline Exploring Sigstore and Fulcio: Boosting Developer Security Amidst Struggles and Challenges

Info

Ignacio Riesgo & Kevin Dubois | Red Hat

Ignacio Riesgo Pablo

Sr. Director, Developer Marketing & Strategy Red Hat

Kevin Dubois

Sr. Principal Developer Advocate Red Hat

search

(bright music) (text whooshing)

>> Good afternoon, (attendees chattering) Cloud community, and welcome back to Paris, France. We're here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, CNCF's biggest event in Europe. My name is Savannah Peterson, joined by the ineffable Rob, Strechay.

>> Right. >> Rob, you're absolutely crushing the show.

I'm so impressed. >> I'm loving this. It's so much fun to talk about these topics, and,

>> It really is.

>> The energy comes through, >> It changes the game.

>> And it just getting some good ideas out there to help people who maybe couldn't make it here,

so, it's awesome. >> Yeah, yeah, and we've got some "CUBE" pros here on the staff. Kevin and Ignacio, welcome back. Thank you both for being here.

>> Thank you so much, >> It's a pleasure to see

your smiling faces. >> Savannah, thank you.

>> Thank you. >> Really excited to be talking about developers. Before we dig in, how's the show going for you guys? This is got to be a big one for you.

>> Yeah, it's probably the biggest show of the year for us. Obviously, Europe, and also the US person,

>> Yeah. >> And it's looking great. I mean, I was hearing the organization sharing that is the biggest KubeCon so far,

so, more than 2000 people, >> Yeah.

>> So, looking great.

>> And we're hearing it's probably a 50-50 split between first time and been here before,

so, it's always nice >> I was wondering about that.

>> To see new blood coming in, get more contributors, and things of that nature, and get some new companies that are coming in.

I know some other companies >> Yeah.

>> Have gone bigger with this show, as well, especially the financial services,

>> Your favorite. >> Because they now have their own little, yes, my favorite.

(Savannah chuckling) >> They're all here, yeah. (Rob chuckling) In fact, you guys had Goldman Sachs on stage earlier today,

>> Yep. >> And there's Deutsche Bank, and a number of others, like Fidelity and Discover, who all are contributing as well, so, it's good to see the community, and not just the financial services, (Savannah laughing) but all the companies here

contributing as well. >> He's going to be running

to them. >> Yeah, well, you see just behind us, Mercedes-Benz.

>> Oh yes. >> so, they are sharing and explaining how they are using Kubernetes in the cars, and I was like,

very good use case. >> Yep.

>> I was not aware that the Mercedes is powered by Kubernetes, so.

>> That's awesome, we had Audi on at KubeCon in Amsterdam, and we talked about them running Kubernetes on their EVs, and it's just, I mean, talk about fun edge use

cases of this, >> Yep.

>> And true adoption, too. I mean, if it's in consumer cars, we're no longer

in this early nerd stage, >> Exactly, mixed in.

>> Right, it's more tangible. >> Right, exactly, it makes it real and tangible for... (chuckles)

>> Yeah. >> Absolutely.

>> Have you seen anything on the show floor that got you excited? Now, that we're talking about this?

>> My own talk? (laughs)

>> Yes! (laughs) (hands clapping) Oh my gosh, shameless self-promotion.

>> Yep, totally. >> I'm here for it, Kevin.

>> Absolutely. >> I am here for it. Well, let's lean into that, what did you talk about, Kevin?

>> Yesterday, I talked about (everyone chuckling) Project Kepler, right? So, you know, of course,

sustainability is a big >> Yeah.

>> Topic and everything, >> Huge.

>> but we wanted to make it a little more tangible, and make it, you know, like, how can we actually measure something real, something that people are wondering about, which is, like, for example, serverless, right? It scales down to zero, so, you would think it's not consuming any energy, because there's no pods running. And so, we were doing different experiments to see if that really was the case or not, because at the end of the day, there's a control plane underneath, of course, that does keep running, so, we had some interesting conclusions

that we could measure >> Yeah.

>> Things to Kepler,

>> Yeah. >> And actually see what is the exact power usage of applications, so, yeah.

>> Yeah, I think it's interesting, and again, I think all of this, and we were talking with Mo earlier today

about kind of using >> Yeah, great chat with Mo.

>> You know, Podman Desktop to really understand what resources, when you start to move things from dev to production, and things of that nature, and had a similar conversation with Docker, and I think when you start to look at all of these different pieces, and how they really move, but the sustainability part of it

is really hard. >> Starting to matter.

>> And like, Deutsche Bank- >> It is hard, yeah.

>> And Deutsche Bank, I mean, I was at AWS at one point in time, and when they came out with the carbon footprint tool, it's like, but it really is that, and is that my scope two? Is that my scope three? Where does that fit in? And as Red Hat, I mean, you guys have to look at that. Is this why you're supporting so much in those projects as well? So to understand all of the, hey, it's not just about buying the software and all the hardware, but it's also running it, and how that impacts you. That has to be kind of your goals in that.

>> Yeah, absolutely, I mean, yeah, we want to help our community, our customers, of course, not only, you know, like, yeah, you can run some stuff in the cloud, but, you know, everything around that is where it really counts these days, right? So, it goes from doing our local development, and having the tools to support that with, for example, Podman Desktop, or our Quarkus, you know, to help the Java developers, and then going into how do we deliver that through pipelines, and automating that, and then maybe in those pipelines, we can actually measure the application's power usage, and seeing, well, this new code change actually consumes way more power, so, I mean, but so, we're in that entire life cycle.

>> Yeah. >> Trying that, you know?

>> And just to finish on this, but Priyanka was making a very good point yesterday about the importance of observability,

how all these- >> It's critical.

>> Critical. >> Absolutely critical.

>> And one of the questions that the companies are going to ask is how I can measure the sustainability of my servers? And this is basically what he was explaining in the talk.

>> Yeah, and we had talked about this just a little bit yesterday

off to the side, >> Yeah.

>> Kind of the hallway track that's going on here, about AI, and the impacts of AI, because even Priyanka brought it up,

>> Right, well... >> And others, it's, hey, I have a 10,000 GPUs, but they're 30% utilized. How do you see, like, just the efforts for getting more efficiency? 'Cause there's a lot of different projects that are aiming at that,

and auto scaling, >> Yeah.

>> And things of that nature

>> Specifically, go ahead.

>> Specifically? >> On AI.

>> Yeah, yeah, right, I mean, it's like you're saying, well, we have all these GPUs, or maybe we don't, how do we use them in an efficient way, in an effective way, where we're either not using as many as we have, or too many? And I think the serverless component is really interesting in that, because it can scale exactly to what we need. Then there's, you know, let's measure it again, but I think what's really interesting in that AI world these days, too, is like, okay, so now, we have models, and we have really cool, kind of new applications of using, you know, with GenAI, and stuff like that, but like, okay, so now, as a developer, how can we leverage this technology for something real and something tangible, something that can actually help us? And then how do we get that to production? (chuckles)

>> Right, well, and let's >> Right?

>> Talk about productivity. We heard an interesting stat earlier, that most developers only spend an average of 37% of their time creating, coding, building. I know we're all really passionate about cognitive load,

>> Yeah. >> And decreasing that burden. How are you all approaching that?

>> Well, as you mentioned, the daunting stat is 75% of the developers feel cognitive load, and the problem is this is only increasing, okay?

>> Savannah: Right, it's not getting any simpler.

>> No, especially when-

>> I was going to say, funny, AI isn't

making that easy? >> Yeah, yeah.

(everyone laughing) >> Exactly.

(hands clapping) >> No, and that's-

>> If you weren't going to say it, I was going to say it.

>> That is exactly part of the problem.

>> Yeah. >> The problem is

we used to work, >> Yeah.

>> Developers used to work, and used to have a good connection with the platform engineers, okay? Suddenly, there is a new team called the data scientists, that are bringing the AI models, that developers are like, "And who are you? And what are you giving to me? And I need to incorporate that in my app? How do I do that?"

So, the stack >> Yeah.

>> Is getting more and more difficult, because we used to have, "Okay, you know about Linux?" "Yes, I am good." "You know about containers?" "Yes, I use Docker." if I know, I know also about Podman Desktop. Yes, I know about Kafka, and integration, and the tools that I need, and I know about Java, and now, suddenly, there is people talking about Go, there are people talking about the learning model, the learning language models, and you are like, "And I need to incorporate all that in my app? Give me a break."

>> Right. >> So, it's all about cognitive load, and how to reduce that, and that's why it's so important that you create books, you train them, events like this, where we explain the whole picture, and developer advocates traveling all over the place, explaining how to use all these models, and how to integrate in your apps. So, it's, again, all pushing tools like Podman Desktop, so, it's all against the same objective. That is, guys, take it easy. This is not the first time that we need to deal with this kind of complex technology. It's just another step.

>> Right.

>> Another set of people that you need to start talking and understanding what are their priorities.

>> And you did a UX >> Yeah, go.

>> Research study on this, too, right?

>> Yeah, Mark was presenting this in one of the sessions, because, as always, the first thing that you do is ask developers where they are struggling, what they want to know more, what is the type of documentation that they are expecting? So, the first is always you do UX research, you ask developers, "What do you need?" And then you work towards that need. In fact, the last version is insisting specifically on that in order to create more learning paths, more tutorials, more easy-to-use ways for developers to access.

>> Yeah, I think it's one of those things that the user experience for the developers, to get them involved, has to be simplified, and I think Podman makes a lot of sense, where you can do it locally, and be able to understand that. I mean, even Priyanka was using it on stage,

and I think when you start >> Yeah.

>> To look at how the community comes to that, and how you can do that, it also helps when you start to think about things like security, right?

And shifting left >> Yeah.

>> With security, and things of that nature. How do you see developers being helped with security from that perspective?

>> Yeah, so, I mean, so, we had the shift left movement, which the idea behind it is great, right? The sooner we find the issues, the sooner we can be aware of them, and the sooner we can fix them, instead of waiting until the last moment before production, when we do some last minute scan, or afterwards even, and then having to go back and fix it. So, in theory, this makes a lot of sense, but in reality, what we saw is that the developers now all of a sudden need to be, like, security experts, because, like, how do we now find these security issues? And so, that's, I think, where we see, especially in the last year, the last six months, a lot of movement towards, okay, how can we actually help the developers? Because now, they have to create their software bill of materials, and they have to find secure images,

and they need to scan 'em, >> Yeah.

>> They need to sign 'em, then verify that, you know, that they actually come from where they're supposed to come from, and everything, and, well, that's so much for the developers. So, one of the things that we're working on is a few tools, using the community, not using, working in the community, (Savannah chuckling) you know, using-

>> Savannah: Collaborating with the

community, yes, yes. >> Collaborating with the

community. >> Thank you.

>> I got you Kevin, I got you guys. (everyone laughing)

>> And yeah, so, leveraging open source to help the developers, you know, like for example, with projects, Sigstore, or Fulcio, or Falco, or whatever, and integrating them into easily consumable products, projects that we can integrate in our pipelines

so the developer, well, >> Yeah.

>> On the first, maybe I should backtrack a little bit, because actually, while they're developing, you have, for example, the Dependency Analytics tool, which will notify the developer, hey, you're trying to use this dependency, it's not secure,

you should use this version, >> Don't do that.

>> Or blah, blah, blah, and then after that, they commit their code, and it will go through a pipeline that's going to take care of all that really complicated stuff where the developers have all the tools available, but they don't have to actually start configuring and finding out exactly how to do it all themselves, so.

>> And I want to add that there are also a couple of data points. The first one is over 700% more attacks

a year. >> I'm glad you brought it up.

I was going to say that. >> Over a year.

>> That's seven, it says here,

742. >> 742%.

>> That's insane. >> That's insane, yeah, but you know why? Because obviously, more and more how we create the code. The code is created taking pieces. We used to do that from a stack overflow. Now, we have ChatGPT, and we taking all these pieces,

>> Right. >> And we are creating the code, and then you don't know which of those pieces is secure. So, you know what the people that want to hurt the company will do? Find that code that is not secure,

>> Right. >> And attack them.

>> Yep, and I think we talked about, it might have been yesterday, like, Trusted Artifact Signer,

and some other things >> Yeah.

>> That you're bringing out >> Yeah, yeah.

>> At the preview. >> Yeah, yeah.

>> What other stuff do you have coming, that's coming down the pipe that way to help?

>> Those are the main tools that we are right now. Overall, the overall picture is trusted software, secure supply chain. That is, okay, you need to ensure that the software that you're creating is secure. You need to things to do that. The first thing is you need to be able to analyze the current code that you are using. You need to know if your libraries are secure, if you are reusing the right code, if that piece of code that you took for whatever is secure, that is the first. And the second thing is you need to be able to sign to every phase of the development process. You need to be able to sign that, yes, this has been tested, this is done, approved, can move to the next stage.

>> Yeah. >> So those are the two pieces that we are bringing. We are right now working towards Summit, but right now, they are already at Tech Review, so, that is, security is definitely one of the key areas looking forward.

>> Yeah, and that adaptation is so key

to people looking. >> Absolutely.

>> It's not just about SBOMs, and yeah, I think SBOMs are great, and we drop 'em all the time on the show, but it's like, you know, we look at it, and say, "Hey, great, but that adds to the cognitive load as well."

>> Savannah: It does, yeah.

>> So, I think that is, so, that's what you're aiming at helping them is reducing it, making security from the start, right?

>> Exactly. >> Yeah.

>> Because, I mean, especially as we scale, and ramp up with things like AI, a tiny, little problem is going to become a magnificent problem

quite quickly. >> Imagine that they take care of your car.

>> Right. >> Imagine that they

attack your car, so. >> So many.

Yeah, no, there's some >> I don't really want

to think about it. >> Pretty wild scenarios.

(everyone laughing) >> Your car is like...

>> Yeah. >> Yeah,

but it is. >> It's not too farfetched.

>> Yeah. >> It's a bit wildly, so.

>> Yep. >> You have a lot of resources for people who are trying to learn for developers, correct?

>> Yeah. >> You've got books, events.

>> Well, that's what we do.

>> Yeah. (laughs) >> Basically. We create, first of all, obviously, we have a number of engineers in the organization working with the open source community in order to create great products, then you need to be able to explain all of that. Then you need, and for developers, it's super critical also to do hands-on activities, because developers learns by doing, it's not enough. It's good enough to read an article, but then, where I can learn this, where I can try this? And then, finally, you need to create deep technical content, and when I say deep technical content, I am talking about 400 level content, super deep, in the form of books, or sessions, or labs, hands-on activities, whatever, but this is how developers learn.

>> Yeah, it's great. >> So, that's what we do, basically.

>> I know, you're great at it. How important is the feedback loop with all the developers?

>> Well, you are collecting >> Extremely.

>> Feedback loop every >> Yeah. (laughs)

>> Single...

>> Right, yeah, because at the end of the day, if we're building tools that don't make sense, or that are too complicated, or maybe they don't hit the need of the developer, then what are we doing, right? So, we are constantly, of course, listening to the developers. I mean, I'm a developer, right? So, I also have my experience to build on top of, but, I mean, it keeps evolving,

and we need to keep an eye >> Oh, yeah.

>> On the community, well, an ear on the community,

and an eye on the community. >> Yeah. You can do both, ears and eyes.

>> And this is the last version of the book

that we are launching here >> Oh, cool.

>> At Red Hat, with developer portals, all about backstage.

>> Awesome, well, we're going to have to... I know what my evening reading material's going to be. (everyone laughing) All right, gentlemen, last question for you, since you're regulars on the show. What can't you say today that you hope you can say next time we have you on "theCUBE"? Kevin, I'll start with you.

>> Yeah. I'm blanking out, so, I'm going to let you start. (laughs)

>> Two things, security everywhere, AI everywhere.

>> Yeah.

>> Those are the two things that are going to be critical for us in the Utah, I mean, in Salt Lake City,

>> Yeah. >> In November. We are working towards presenting a bunch of news, because, again, it's not about AI as such, it's, okay, AI in my product, AI in Podman Desktop,

how we are taking the AI. >> Yeah.

>> Also, there is another great quote from Chris Wright, our CTO, that says, "Guys, the future is not about building LLMs, large language models, it's about a small LMs."

>> Yeah. >> It's about every company creating their own LM, their own expertise, infusing that expertise in the app, and then ensuring that that app is then produced.

So, and obviously, >> Well said.

>> Within the process, security, all over. So, those are the two big key themes we are looking

for Salt Lake City. >> Are we talking about

the little L for a while? >> We will talk about that

in May. >> Yeah.

Yes, right. >> Yes.

>> Summit, I will hope that

I will see you there, so. >> Yes, absolutely.

>> Absolutely. >> Actually, we call 'em segmented or small language models, SLMs, and we actually have what we call our... Actually, it's a distribution of generative AI, and what you see is the long tail is actually those small

>> The small, yeah. >> Or segmented LLMs that-

>> Or enterprise LMs, or- >> Yeah, and they're going to be so numerous,

and that's where the security >> It's true.

>> Comes around, >> Right.

>> 'Cause you're going to have sprawl, you're going to have LLM sprawl. (laughs)

>> Yeah, right, and then it's the same story again, right? How do we get those to production in a safe way

without overloading >> Yeah.

>> The developers, whether they're working on the models, or the applications, and/or both, so, yeah, absolutely.

>> Great. >> All right, we'll let you get away with a collaborative answer on that one,

since, yeah, yeah, >> Thank you, yeah.

>> No problem. >> That's very nice of you.

(Kevin laughing) >> Kevin and Ignacio, it's such a pleasure to have you on the show, always. Thank you for making the time for being here, and for all you do, making the developer experience better. I'm sure there's a lot of people also very grateful for you. And thank you, Rob, for a fantastic day so far, and thanks all of you for tuning in wherever you are on this gorgeous rock. We're here in Paris, France at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. My name's Savannah Peterson. You're watching "theCUBE," the leading source for enterprise tech news. (bright music)

Ignacio Riesgo & Kevin Dubois | Red Hat

search

(bright music) (text whooshing)

>> Good afternoon, (attendees chattering) Cloud community, and welcome back to Paris, France. We're here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, CNCF's biggest event in Europe. My name is Savannah Peterson, joined by the ineffable Rob, Strechay.

>> Right. >> Rob, you're absolutely crushing the show.

I'm so impressed. >> I'm loving this. It's so much fun to talk about these topics, and,

>> It really is.

>> The energy comes through, >> It changes the game.

>> And it just getting some good ideas out there to help people who maybe couldn't make it here,

so, it's awesome. >> Yeah, yeah, and we've got some "CUBE" pros here on the staff. Kevin and Ignacio, welcome back. Thank you both for being here.

>> Thank you so much, >> It's a pleasure to see

your smiling faces. >> Savannah, thank you.

>> Thank you. >> Really excited to be talking about developers. Before we dig in, how's the show going for you guys? This is got to be a big one for you.

>> Yeah, it's probably the biggest show of the year for us. Obviously, Europe, and also the US person,

>> Yeah. >> And it's looking great. I mean, I was hearing the organization sharing that is the biggest KubeCon so far,

so, more than 2000 people, >> Yeah.

>> So, looking great.

>> And we're hearing it's probably a 50-50 split between first time and been here before,

so, it's always nice >> I was wondering about that.

>> To see new blood coming in, get more contributors, and things of that nature, and get some new companies that are coming in.

I know some other companies >> Yeah.

>> Have gone bigger with this show, as well, especially the financial services,

>> Your favorite. >> Because they now have their own little, yes, my favorite.

(Savannah chuckling) >> They're all here, yeah. (Rob chuckling) In fact, you guys had Goldman Sachs on stage earlier today,

>> Yep. >> And there's Deutsche Bank, and a number of others, like Fidelity and Discover, who all are contributing as well, so, it's good to see the community, and not just the financial services, (Savannah laughing) but all the companies here

contributing as well. >> He's going to be running

to them. >> Yeah, well, you see just behind us, Mercedes-Benz.

>> Oh yes. >> so, they are sharing and explaining how they are using Kubernetes in the cars, and I was like,

very good use case. >> Yep.

>> I was not aware that the Mercedes is powered by Kubernetes, so.

>> That's awesome, we had Audi on at KubeCon in Amsterdam, and we talked about them running Kubernetes on their EVs, and it's just, I mean, talk about fun edge use

cases of this, >> Yep.

>> And true adoption, too. I mean, if it's in consumer cars, we're no longer

in this early nerd stage, >> Exactly, mixed in.

>> Right, it's more tangible. >> Right, exactly, it makes it real and tangible for... (chuckles)

>> Yeah. >> Absolutely.

>> Have you seen anything on the show floor that got you excited? Now, that we're talking about this?

>> My own talk? (laughs)

>> Yes! (laughs) (hands clapping) Oh my gosh, shameless self-promotion.

>> Yep, totally. >> I'm here for it, Kevin.

>> Absolutely. >> I am here for it. Well, let's lean into that, what did you talk about, Kevin?

>> Yesterday, I talked about (everyone chuckling) Project Kepler, right? So, you know, of course,

sustainability is a big >> Yeah.

>> Topic and everything, >> Huge.

>> but we wanted to make it a little more tangible, and make it, you know, like, how can we actually measure something real, something that people are wondering about, which is, like, for example, serverless, right? It scales down to zero, so, you would think it's not consuming any energy, because there's no pods running. And so, we were doing different experiments to see if that really was the case or not, because at the end of the day, there's a control plane underneath, of course, that does keep running, so, we had some interesting conclusions

that we could measure >> Yeah.

>> Things to Kepler,

>> Yeah. >> And actually see what is the exact power usage of applications, so, yeah.

>> Yeah, I think it's interesting, and again, I think all of this, and we were talking with Mo earlier today

about kind of using >> Yeah, great chat with Mo.

>> You know, Podman Desktop to really understand what resources, when you start to move things from dev to production, and things of that nature, and had a similar conversation with Docker, and I think when you start to look at all of these different pieces, and how they really move, but the sustainability part of it

is really hard. >> Starting to matter.

>> And like, Deutsche Bank- >> It is hard, yeah.

>> And Deutsche Bank, I mean, I was at AWS at one point in time, and when they came out with the carbon footprint tool, it's like, but it really is that, and is that my scope two? Is that my scope three? Where does that fit in? And as Red Hat, I mean, you guys have to look at that. Is this why you're supporting so much in those projects as well? So to understand all of the, hey, it's not just about buying the software and all the hardware, but it's also running it, and how that impacts you. That has to be kind of your goals in that.

>> Yeah, absolutely, I mean, yeah, we want to help our community, our customers, of course, not only, you know, like, yeah, you can run some stuff in the cloud, but, you know, everything around that is where it really counts these days, right? So, it goes from doing our local development, and having the tools to support that with, for example, Podman Desktop, or our Quarkus, you know, to help the Java developers, and then going into how do we deliver that through pipelines, and automating that, and then maybe in those pipelines, we can actually measure the application's power usage, and seeing, well, this new code change actually consumes way more power, so, I mean, but so, we're in that entire life cycle.

>> Yeah. >> Trying that, you know?

>> And just to finish on this, but Priyanka was making a very good point yesterday about the importance of observability,

how all these- >> It's critical.

>> Critical. >> Absolutely critical.

>> And one of the questions that the companies are going to ask is how I can measure the sustainability of my servers? And this is basically what he was explaining in the talk.

>> Yeah, and we had talked about this just a little bit yesterday

off to the side, >> Yeah.

>> Kind of the hallway track that's going on here, about AI, and the impacts of AI, because even Priyanka brought it up,

>> Right, well... >> And others, it's, hey, I have a 10,000 GPUs, but they're 30% utilized. How do you see, like, just the efforts for getting more efficiency? 'Cause there's a lot of different projects that are aiming at that,

and auto scaling, >> Yeah.

>> And things of that nature

>> Specifically, go ahead.

>> Specifically? >> On AI.

>> Yeah, yeah, right, I mean, it's like you're saying, well, we have all these GPUs, or maybe we don't, how do we use them in an efficient way, in an effective way, where we're either not using as many as we have, or too many? And I think the serverless component is really interesting in that, because it can scale exactly to what we need. Then there's, you know, let's measure it again, but I think what's really interesting in that AI world these days, too, is like, okay, so now, we have models, and we have really cool, kind of new applications of using, you know, with GenAI, and stuff like that, but like, okay, so now, as a developer, how can we leverage this technology for something real and something tangible, something that can actually help us? And then how do we get that to production? (chuckles)

>> Right, well, and let's >> Right?

>> Talk about productivity. We heard an interesting stat earlier, that most developers only spend an average of 37% of their time creating, coding, building. I know we're all really passionate about cognitive load,

>> Yeah. >> And decreasing that burden. How are you all approaching that?

>> Well, as you mentioned, the daunting stat is 75% of the developers feel cognitive load, and the problem is this is only increasing, okay?

>> Savannah: Right, it's not getting any simpler.

>> No, especially when-

>> I was going to say, funny, AI isn't

making that easy? >> Yeah, yeah.

(everyone laughing) >> Exactly.

(hands clapping) >> No, and that's-

>> If you weren't going to say it, I was going to say it.

>> That is exactly part of the problem.

>> Yeah. >> The problem is

we used to work, >> Yeah.

>> Developers used to work, and used to have a good connection with the platform engineers, okay? Suddenly, there is a new team called the data scientists, that are bringing the AI models, that developers are like, "And who are you? And what are you giving to me? And I need to incorporate that in my app? How do I do that?"

So, the stack >> Yeah.

>> Is getting more and more difficult, because we used to have, "Okay, you know about Linux?" "Yes, I am good." "You know about containers?" "Yes, I use Docker." if I know, I know also about Podman Desktop. Yes, I know about Kafka, and integration, and the tools that I need, and I know about Java, and now, suddenly, there is people talking about Go, there are people talking about the learning model, the learning language models, and you are like, "And I need to incorporate all that in my app? Give me a break."

>> Right. >> So, it's all about cognitive load, and how to reduce that, and that's why it's so important that you create books, you train them, events like this, where we explain the whole picture, and developer advocates traveling all over the place, explaining how to use all these models, and how to integrate in your apps. So, it's, again, all pushing tools like Podman Desktop, so, it's all against the same objective. That is, guys, take it easy. This is not the first time that we need to deal with this kind of complex technology. It's just another step.

>> Right.

>> Another set of people that you need to start talking and understanding what are their priorities.

>> And you did a UX >> Yeah, go.

>> Research study on this, too, right?

>> Yeah, Mark was presenting this in one of the sessions, because, as always, the first thing that you do is ask developers where they are struggling, what they want to know more, what is the type of documentation that they are expecting? So, the first is always you do UX research, you ask developers, "What do you need?" And then you work towards that need. In fact, the last version is insisting specifically on that in order to create more learning paths, more tutorials, more easy-to-use ways for developers to access.

>> Yeah, I think it's one of those things that the user experience for the developers, to get them involved, has to be simplified, and I think Podman makes a lot of sense, where you can do it locally, and be able to understand that. I mean, even Priyanka was using it on stage,

and I think when you start >> Yeah.

>> To look at how the community comes to that, and how you can do that, it also helps when you start to think about things like security, right?

And shifting left >> Yeah.

>> With security, and things of that nature. How do you see developers being helped with security from that perspective?

>> Yeah, so, I mean, so, we had the shift left movement, which the idea behind it is great, right? The sooner we find the issues, the sooner we can be aware of them, and the sooner we can fix them, instead of waiting until the last moment before production, when we do some last minute scan, or afterwards even, and then having to go back and fix it. So, in theory, this makes a lot of sense, but in reality, what we saw is that the developers now all of a sudden need to be, like, security experts, because, like, how do we now find these security issues? And so, that's, I think, where we see, especially in the last year, the last six months, a lot of movement towards, okay, how can we actually help the developers? Because now, they have to create their software bill of materials, and they have to find secure images,

and they need to scan 'em, >> Yeah.

>> They need to sign 'em, then verify that, you know, that they actually come from where they're supposed to come from, and everything, and, well, that's so much for the developers. So, one of the things that we're working on is a few tools, using the community, not using, working in the community, (Savannah chuckling) you know, using-

>> Savannah: Collaborating with the

community, yes, yes. >> Collaborating with the

community. >> Thank you.

>> I got you Kevin, I got you guys. (everyone laughing)

>> And yeah, so, leveraging open source to help the developers, you know, like for example, with projects, Sigstore, or Fulcio, or Falco, or whatever, and integrating them into easily consumable products, projects that we can integrate in our pipelines

so the developer, well, >> Yeah.

>> On the first, maybe I should backtrack a little bit, because actually, while they're developing, you have, for example, the Dependency Analytics tool, which will notify the developer, hey, you're trying to use this dependency, it's not secure,

you should use this version, >> Don't do that.

>> Or blah, blah, blah, and then after that, they commit their code, and it will go through a pipeline that's going to take care of all that really complicated stuff where the developers have all the tools available, but they don't have to actually start configuring and finding out exactly how to do it all themselves, so.

>> And I want to add that there are also a couple of data points. The first one is over 700% more attacks

a year. >> I'm glad you brought it up.

I was going to say that. >> Over a year.

>> That's seven, it says here,

742. >> 742%.

>> That's insane. >> That's insane, yeah, but you know why? Because obviously, more and more how we create the code. The code is created taking pieces. We used to do that from a stack overflow. Now, we have ChatGPT, and we taking all these pieces,

>> Right. >> And we are creating the code, and then you don't know which of those pieces is secure. So, you know what the people that want to hurt the company will do? Find that code that is not secure,

>> Right. >> And attack them.

>> Yep, and I think we talked about, it might have been yesterday, like, Trusted Artifact Signer,

and some other things >> Yeah.

>> That you're bringing out >> Yeah, yeah.

>> At the preview. >> Yeah, yeah.

>> What other stuff do you have coming, that's coming down the pipe that way to help?

>> Those are the main tools that we are right now. Overall, the overall picture is trusted software, secure supply chain. That is, okay, you need to ensure that the software that you're creating is secure. You need to things to do that. The first thing is you need to be able to analyze the current code that you are using. You need to know if your libraries are secure, if you are reusing the right code, if that piece of code that you took for whatever is secure, that is the first. And the second thing is you need to be able to sign to every phase of the development process. You need to be able to sign that, yes, this has been tested, this is done, approved, can move to the next stage.

>> Yeah. >> So those are the two pieces that we are bringing. We are right now working towards Summit, but right now, they are already at Tech Review, so, that is, security is definitely one of the key areas looking forward.

>> Yeah, and that adaptation is so key

to people looking. >> Absolutely.

>> It's not just about SBOMs, and yeah, I think SBOMs are great, and we drop 'em all the time on the show, but it's like, you know, we look at it, and say, "Hey, great, but that adds to the cognitive load as well."

>> Savannah: It does, yeah.

>> So, I think that is, so, that's what you're aiming at helping them is reducing it, making security from the start, right?

>> Exactly. >> Yeah.

>> Because, I mean, especially as we scale, and ramp up with things like AI, a tiny, little problem is going to become a magnificent problem

quite quickly. >> Imagine that they take care of your car.

>> Right. >> Imagine that they

attack your car, so. >> So many.

Yeah, no, there's some >> I don't really want

to think about it. >> Pretty wild scenarios.

(everyone laughing) >> Your car is like...

>> Yeah. >> Yeah,

but it is. >> It's not too farfetched.

>> Yeah. >> It's a bit wildly, so.

>> Yep. >> You have a lot of resources for people who are trying to learn for developers, correct?

>> Yeah. >> You've got books, events.

>> Well, that's what we do.

>> Yeah. (laughs) >> Basically. We create, first of all, obviously, we have a number of engineers in the organization working with the open source community in order to create great products, then you need to be able to explain all of that. Then you need, and for developers, it's super critical also to do hands-on activities, because developers learns by doing, it's not enough. It's good enough to read an article, but then, where I can learn this, where I can try this? And then, finally, you need to create deep technical content, and when I say deep technical content, I am talking about 400 level content, super deep, in the form of books, or sessions, or labs, hands-on activities, whatever, but this is how developers learn.

>> Yeah, it's great. >> So, that's what we do, basically.

>> I know, you're great at it. How important is the feedback loop with all the developers?

>> Well, you are collecting >> Extremely.

>> Feedback loop every >> Yeah. (laughs)

>> Single...

>> Right, yeah, because at the end of the day, if we're building tools that don't make sense, or that are too complicated, or maybe they don't hit the need of the developer, then what are we doing, right? So, we are constantly, of course, listening to the developers. I mean, I'm a developer, right? So, I also have my experience to build on top of, but, I mean, it keeps evolving,

and we need to keep an eye >> Oh, yeah.

>> On the community, well, an ear on the community,

and an eye on the community. >> Yeah. You can do both, ears and eyes.

>> And this is the last version of the book

that we are launching here >> Oh, cool.

>> At Red Hat, with developer portals, all about backstage.

>> Awesome, well, we're going to have to... I know what my evening reading material's going to be. (everyone laughing) All right, gentlemen, last question for you, since you're regulars on the show. What can't you say today that you hope you can say next time we have you on "theCUBE"? Kevin, I'll start with you.

>> Yeah. I'm blanking out, so, I'm going to let you start. (laughs)

>> Two things, security everywhere, AI everywhere.

>> Yeah.

>> Those are the two things that are going to be critical for us in the Utah, I mean, in Salt Lake City,

>> Yeah. >> In November. We are working towards presenting a bunch of news, because, again, it's not about AI as such, it's, okay, AI in my product, AI in Podman Desktop,

how we are taking the AI. >> Yeah.

>> Also, there is another great quote from Chris Wright, our CTO, that says, "Guys, the future is not about building LLMs, large language models, it's about a small LMs."

>> Yeah. >> It's about every company creating their own LM, their own expertise, infusing that expertise in the app, and then ensuring that that app is then produced.

So, and obviously, >> Well said.

>> Within the process, security, all over. So, those are the two big key themes we are looking

for Salt Lake City. >> Are we talking about

the little L for a while? >> We will talk about that

in May. >> Yeah.

Yes, right. >> Yes.

>> Summit, I will hope that

I will see you there, so. >> Yes, absolutely.

>> Absolutely. >> Actually, we call 'em segmented or small language models, SLMs, and we actually have what we call our... Actually, it's a distribution of generative AI, and what you see is the long tail is actually those small

>> The small, yeah. >> Or segmented LLMs that-

>> Or enterprise LMs, or- >> Yeah, and they're going to be so numerous,

and that's where the security >> It's true.

>> Comes around, >> Right.

>> 'Cause you're going to have sprawl, you're going to have LLM sprawl. (laughs)

>> Yeah, right, and then it's the same story again, right? How do we get those to production in a safe way

without overloading >> Yeah.

>> The developers, whether they're working on the models, or the applications, and/or both, so, yeah, absolutely.

>> Great. >> All right, we'll let you get away with a collaborative answer on that one,

since, yeah, yeah, >> Thank you, yeah.

>> No problem. >> That's very nice of you.

(Kevin laughing) >> Kevin and Ignacio, it's such a pleasure to have you on the show, always. Thank you for making the time for being here, and for all you do, making the developer experience better. I'm sure there's a lot of people also very grateful for you. And thank you, Rob, for a fantastic day so far, and thanks all of you for tuning in wherever you are on this gorgeous rock. We're here in Paris, France at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. My name's Savannah Peterson. You're watching "theCUBE," the leading source for enterprise tech news. (bright music)