Certinia at Dreamforce | Mimi Spier, Certinia

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More from Certinia at Dreamforce

Mimi Spier

CMO

Certinia

play_circle_outline Certinia evolving into a System of Action through rapid AI investment.

play_circle_outline Professional services as the frontline for AI-driven disruption and innovation.

play_circle_outline Brand Authority for AI Answer Engines: Winning B2B Buyers in an LLM-Driven Market

play_circle_outline Credibility depends on third-party proof: customers, analysts, awards, partner validation.

play_circle_outline Websites largely unprepared for AEO; need structural changes for LLM crawlers.

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Mimi Spier, Certinia

Mimi Spier

CMO Certinia

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Scott Hebner

>> Hello everybody. Welcome back to theCUBE's continuing coverage of Dreamforce 2026. I'm Scott Hebner, Principal Analyst for AI at theCUBE Research. And again, thank you so much for tuning in. Today I'm thrilled to have Mimi Spier, who's the CMO, Chief Marketing Officer at Certinia, joining me. And we're going to have not only a conversation about what's happening with the marketplace, and what you're all doing here at Dreamforce. But talk a little bit CMO to CMO about how the world is changing. I think it's been 4 or 5 years since I was actually in that kind of marketing position, doing the analyst stuff now and all that. But things seem like they've changed a ton.

Scott Hebner

>> Oh my gosh.

Scott Hebner

>> So I would love to get some of your views on what's happened with the art and science of marketing these days.

Scott Hebner

>> Absolutely. Yeah, love to talk. All of the above.

Scott Hebner

>> All of the above. So let me start with, let me tell you, again, having been around for a long time, I've been to tons of these shows, used to run, the events at IBM for a while. And what you guys have done, and my compliments to, you guys as a partner, really impressive setup here right across from the Moscone Center. I think it is a great expression of brand and the value of your customers, what you're doing here. So tell us a little bit about all this that we're looking at behind us and what led to that and why you think this is so important.

Scott Hebner

>> Yeah, so Certinia is going through a major evolution, I would say. And what we announced last week was we've become a System of Action. And with our tremendous investment in AI so quickly, we are really a new company. We are now a System of Action across professional services, customer success, financial management. And with that, we need to show up differently. And we think it's important to be bold. We think it's important to bring people into the forefront of our brand because we are serving the services organizations. The services organizations that are run by people are being disrupted more than any other industry in the world with AI. And we are at the forefront of ensuring that first of all, AI will not replace services organizations, people will always be important. So we want people to be at the center of the brand and we want to take this brand and take our System of Action and help our customers get to the other side of the next generation service economy. So that's what we were showing at Dreamforce was all about.

Scott Hebner

>> Yeah. And having been covering this industry pretty much all of 2026, I think you're right. You guys come across as focused on people and economics, not just the technology. And we'll get to the technology in a second because I think you guys are way ahead of the game here in terms of what's happening here. And I love some of the messaging which is people-centric. Back at Services Week, you had AI efficiency, but it was about judgment. You need judgment. You're helping people make better judgments. And then here it's about being certain, greater certainty, the more certain you are of an outcome, the more the actions make sense, right? Or maybe it's the other way around. The more certain you are that this is the right action, you're gonna get better outcomes. And those are human attributes, right? Being, enabling better judgments, helping people be more certain about their judgments and their decisions. I think that's really good. And it comes across really strongly here.

Scott Hebner

>> Thank you, thank you. And that's exactly the goal. I think in the evolution of marketing right now with AI, things are so noisy that brand is so important and elevating a brand, even going on the edge of consumer, like consumer brands for B2B companies, I think is critical. And because brand authority is one of the most unique things I think that companies could have in order to not only stand out in this crazy world, but also train the LLMs and train the people that are in the buyers that are doing research. I think the buyer's journey has changed so much that having brand be at the forefront and brand authority I think is really critical on the marketing front. For Certinia, I think having a crystal clear message on how we can help our customers get to the next generation, is really critical. they have been very clear on what they need, and now we are delivering it. And so, this is— this represents that next generation for us.

Scott Hebner

>> Yeah, well, I got so many places I want to go with that.

Scott Hebner

>> Okay, keep— let's go.

Scott Hebner

>> Let me start on just a broader thought about— okay, I've often said, and part of the reason why I've been so focused on professional services is that I think it is where you look to see where enterprise AI is going because it's such a consequential part of the market, the sector, right?

Scott Hebner

>> Yes.

Scott Hebner

>> Because you're actually building stuff with people.

Scott Hebner

>> Right.

Scott Hebner

>> And so what happens in professional services, I think it's going to ultimately happen in other places.

Scott Hebner

>> Right.

Scott Hebner

>> You agree with that?

Scott Hebner

>> Completely. if you think about it, the professional services are who are implementing a lot of the new capabilities that are happening across every other industry. So that's one. So they are at the forefront of all new tech and all that's happening with AI. The other thing is that because they are service-led businesses, there's huge concern that they will be replaced by AI. And so they have to innovate faster than any other industry. And that's really the basis of what we're trying to do is we know the future of all industries, but especially professional services, is a balance of AI and people. We know people and work and jobs— and Jensen said it yesterday, with Marc— that jobs are not going away. They're evolving. But what's important is how do we use AI to empower people in the future of how they deliver value to their customers. And I think at Certinia, we are thinking and working with our customers every day, not just to think about how they run their business and getting rid of administrative tasks and all the things that they have to do to sell and to plan and to deliver and to manage each project and to expand it. That's kind of the basis of running the business. But how do they deliver value to customers? Because expectations now are about measuring value, not measuring billable hours anymore. And so how do we make sure that they are delivering the most efficient value using a combination of AI for all those administrative tasks and completely eliminating that from what people have to do. And then bringing that unique value that the individuals at every one of these companies have to offer in every project. So that's where we're focused. And we think this— the professional services industry is going through the biggest disruption, but they will also come out the other side the fastest and I think the strongest.

Scott Hebner

>> Yeah. And we had several of your colleagues on some of the coverage we've had here. So I think you guys are well ahead of the AI maturity curve, let's call it. I would say farther ahead than 90% of all enterprises out there by far. Which is why, you know, one of the things that's great about my job is I get to talk to a ton of different people in different industries and all that. And I think it's, like you said, you're kind of forced to do that in this industry to be an innovator. And at the same time, several of the customers that I've interviewed, your customers said, that it's actually creating more jobs, not less, because there's more projects and with greater certainty becomes—

Scott Hebner

>> and faster projects, right? Yeah.

Scott Hebner

>> So you're right. I think it's a good place to look. Let's pivot back to your comment on brand authority, because it's been my observation that the rules have changed a lot when it comes to brand authority. Let's call it that. And I think it's very different than the old world of brand equity. If you just think about the way people are doing their buying journeys today, I think G2 came out with a survey of 1,000+ B2B buyers, and I think it was 57% start with and use these AI-mediated discussions with ChatGPT or Claude or Gemini or whatever as their way to evaluate, discover, you know, the buying journey. 30% of them never leave. Never click through to a website. Basically, they're conducting the buying journey.

Scott Hebner

>> They get all the information they need from one. Yeah.

Scott Hebner

>> And that was up, I think, 36% from the year before. So I think it's probably going to trend up higher and higher. The dirty little secret about this, though, is in the old days— well, in the search days, Google Search, for example, there would be pages of options. So companies had a way to get visibility, right? Dozens and dozens would show up maybe on page 2 or page 3, but you're still there. Right. In the world of the AI answers, 3 to 8 at best show up. So there's a huge market compression going on.

Scott Hebner

>> Yeah.

Scott Hebner

>> And as the engines evaluate, who am I going to surface for this answer? Who do I trust the most in all that? And I think brand authority has become the most critical thing to establish to actually consistently show up in these answers.

Scott Hebner

>> Agree. Agree. And it's hard. I think the role of being a leader in marketing is, it's a completely different job. So, let me unpack a little bit of what you said and I'll get to, how does an organization get to the highest brand authority? And in my opinion, coming from a background in product marketing, and I do think that having a background in product marketing is almost essential for CMOs at this point, because in order to get brand authority, you have to have the right message to the right buyers group. And that doesn't mean just one individual, but the entire buyers group. With the right product, with the right proof points, at the right time. And this is a strategic mindset that the entire executive team has to be a part of to make sure that we have the right business strategy. So it starts with that. The second is how do we create content? Because content is so noisy. How do we create content that answers the questions of each of the personas within the buyers group at the stage that they're in when they're looking. We know that they're going into the LLMs. We know they can do very quick research. By the time they get to our website, they're much more knowledgeable than they used to be. And so the content has to change. And I've been in many CMO clubs and I've had a lot of fantastic CMO mentors. And one of the most consistent things that we've come up with is that we have to almost reverse engineer the content now and really understand what are the questions we're trying to answer and what is the best content that the LLMs will pick up and respond with authority and credibility that also answers the questions that the buyers within the buyer's group are asking at the given time. So anyway, that's just the beginning, I think, of brand authority. And it's easier said than done for sure.

Scott Hebner

>> It is. I think it's a combination of an art and a science, right?

Scott Hebner

>> Yeah.

Scott Hebner

>> Unlike SEO, which was more of a science, right? Backlinks, so on and so forth. Yeah. keywords, very— and the keyword implied the value of what people were looking for, where right now you have to really understand what the real intent is.

Scott Hebner

>> Exactly.

Scott Hebner

>> Of a question, not just what the question is, but what's the intent of it? Is it decision-making?

Scott Hebner

>> Yeah. And you have to have real credibility. So you talked about this earlier, but I wanted to just jump on that because you can't fake out the LLMs, you can't cheat. you have to have true authority. You have to have partners and customers and awards and analysts and people around you that are saying positive things and very clear and concise value that they are getting from your solution. And that is what is going to improve the brand authority. And so how you get that is definitely the art and science.

Scott Hebner

>> So yeah, it absolutely is. And these LLMs, these answer engine mechanisms, are in practice authority evaluation machines. They will not take your claims at face value. They would want proof, and the proof comes from the ecosystem of reinforcement that's out there. So what is published external or non-owned and what the opinions of others are count more and that's what's so different about SEO. And I think you're right about the content. There's content that helps machines understand semantically what you're all about, why you matter, what you do. There's content that establishes relevance in the moment, right? There's content that validates you. So, are you credible? Are you authentic? Are you authoritative in your market? Are you a practitioner and therefore trusted because you've done this before? And then the content piece is one thing that is amazing. The numbers are startling. 90% of websites aren't AEO ready. They've been developed for humans and for SEO, but not for LLM crawlers.

Scott Hebner

>> Yes.

Scott Hebner

>> And that's a whole mechanical, that's a science.

Scott Hebner

>> That's a whole nother, and that's exactly, that is. So that's a big part of it as well is your website. And when people land on the website, they're in a different stage than they used to be. So it has to have the right information and be able to drive the right buyer's journey, from the minute they land and be able to answer the questions they need. So yeah, I get it.

Scott Hebner

>> For all those reasons, that's why I think the next stage here is, there's some good surveys recently that CMOs don't need more tools to monitor and measure. Yeah, they need AEO diagnostics. They need to be able to diagnose why things are what they are. And more importantly, what to do about it. And you sort of have to understand root cause if you're really going to make a durable impact.

Scott Hebner

>> Right.

Scott Hebner

>> And I think that's where it's all heading, is to really get under the covers of all this and answer the question of why. And that's where I sense people are struggling. And the rules have totally changed. And they're— because we're dealing with probabilistic entities being these LLMs, given that every— God, whatever— every week there's a new LLM new version, Frontier model coming out. It is an ongoing job just to keep up with the science of it, and then the art form is how you interpret it, which brings me full circle back to your comment about product management, product marketing background being so important, because it's no longer an execution excellence job. It's not a cost center.

Scott Hebner

>> Right, it's not just pushing more ads, it's not just pushing more search, it's much more strategic. That starts at the very beginning of your business strategy, really.

Scott Hebner

>> So, and you're here at Certinia, you're part of the strategic leadership team.

Scott Hebner

>> Yeah, very much.

Scott Hebner

>> You have a voice at the table. You're helping to inform what's happening with buyers and markets.

Scott Hebner

>> Very much. And you need to be glued at the hip with the COO, with the chief product officer, with the CEO. We all need to define this together because ultimately it's the basis of your business strategy, which, what we've and how we become a system of action, for example, that will drive your marketing strategy.

Scott Hebner

>> So anyway. What's your view on, which I think is all nonsense, by the way, I'm the exact opposite. I think AI's gonna create more jobs in the long run. I'm glad you asked this. I'm gonna ask you about, first of all, the broader theme is that AI's gonna take everyone's jobs. Now it's gonna kill us all. Reminds me of the year 2000 thing.

Scott Hebner

>> Totally.We were all gonna die in the year 2000, nothing happened, right? But it's my sense that marketing becomes an increasingly important profession because of AI, and that there's actually going to be a need for more people because you become more strategic. It's not the execution, it's not the value. Yeah, AI is going to do more and more of maybe some jobs, but it's going to shift the burden to more important jobs, which brings me back to your— what sparked the question was being— having a seat at the table.

Scott Hebner

>> Yes. Okay. So let

Scott Hebner

>> me—you agree we're not going to get all killed by it?

Scott Hebner

>> Agree. So here's what I would say, because I've read a ton about what's going to happen in marketing and these one-man marketing shops that are doing everything, and no, that's not happening. Do I think marketing is more efficient with AI? Absolutely. Do I think that we can be incredibly prescriptive in how we use AI to make ourselves more efficient, to personalize the right message to the right persona at the right time in a much faster way? Absolutely. Can we get target and intent signals much more efficiently? Absolutely. Can we arm sales with a better competitive lens and better objection handling and things like that faster? Absolutely. So will it be— is it more efficient? Yes. But it gives me personally more time to be more strategic and spend more time with my executive team really diagnosing where do we want to go as a company, what is going to get us there, and what's the marketing strategy that would then connect to that to get us there. So yeah, I think teams can do more with less. I do. I think you don't need as big a marketing team as you used to. I think the roles of the marketing people have changed. You need definitely more strategic people and you need people that can balance and not be afraid to lean into AI to help them to be more efficient in their jobs.

Scott Hebner

>> So sort of

Scott Hebner

>> like—and it's still an evolution for all. We're all learning. We're all seeing, I don't know all the answers at this point.

Scott Hebner

>> I don't think AI is going to replace marketing people. It's marketing people that know how to use AI that are going to replace marketing people that don't.

Scott Hebner

>> Oh, no doubt about that. No doubt about

Scott Hebner

>> that.Because marketing— I just sort of know. So it's been many years since I've been in the marketing, an actual— at IBM, actually doing marketing, but it seemed to me that it was becoming more and more of a data science kind of role.

Scott Hebner

>> Very much.

Scott Hebner

>> The really strong ones were not only strategic, but they knew how to diagnose data, pipeline, all that kind of stuff. And now you're adding the AI layer on top of, so it's a rapidly changing profession, but I think super important. And if you just go back to your comment on brand authority, the marketing leader is the one I would think is most accountable, along with chief communications for the brand authority. And I do strongly, strongly, super strongly believe that brand authority will become the differentiation of who's visible and who's not. And more importantly, who's preferred in these AI answers and when you think about it, it's literally compressing the market.

Scott Hebner

>> I know.

Scott Hebner

>> And like you said, all the noise of the content. And so there's just a whole new set of rules that people got to quickly get their head around. The other true thing about AEO is that your advantage compounds. The more you're in a leadership position, the more you get recalled, the more you get cited, the more you're on shortlists. It just reinforces your durability with the engine.

Scott Hebner

>> Completely.

Scott Hebner

>> And your vector space expands into adjacent areas. And so if you fall behind, you may never catch up.

Scott Hebner

>> True, true. And I do think the key is be certain— I'll just throw it out there— about your strategy for your business, who you're targeting, in what markets, with what product, how you price, how you package, how you message to get the most differentiated message. Be certain about that and everything else, and then you'll go and get all the credibility, you'll get your customers, you'll get all the people saying the right things, go get that credibility, go get that authority or the third-party voice that proves and gives the proof points that you're doing this. Then you can be really bold in your brand to get that authority.

Scott Hebner

>> Just the interviews we've done here at Dreamforce, vast majority were customers, which is the third-party reinforcement. I know, so happy about that. That's what builds brand authority. Before we wrap up here, Tell us a little bit about what it's been, 3, 4 months since you've joined? Not even that?

Scott Hebner

>> Yeah. Yes, it's been about 4 months.

Scott Hebner

>> So how's it gone?

Scott Hebner

>> It's been incredible. I feel that the company was ready to go a little more bold. It was a perfect time. We just invested in AI. We acquired Moonnox. We knew our aggressive roadmap where we are heading towards by the end of the year. And so it gave me this excitement. We know our customers. We just won the IDC Customer Satisfaction Awards. So we know our customers are super happy with what we're doing, and it gave me so much— we are number one on the IDC MarketScape. So we have one of the best products out there. So for a marketer, it's kind of a dream where you kind of— and we have a fabulous executive team where I get to work with these amazing people, and I have a lot of freedom to do what I think is right for the business. And so being able to show up at Dreamforce with a completely new way of describing ourselves, a very clear and consistent message with this bold brand that puts people and elevates people first, has been a really fun 3, 4 months as a starting point.

Scott Hebner

>> I've really enjoyed covering you guys, going back more closely to March, I think. And it seems like every couple months there's a whole new progression. It's the same narrative, but new chapters. And so you guys are innovating at rapid speed. It's all customer-centric, people-centric, as you said. And so we'll see what you guys are going to do in a couple of months.

Scott Hebner

>> Just wait till TSIA. That's the next step. We're going to continue. We are moving fast and we'll have more to announce then. So thanks for having me. This has been really awesome.

Scott Hebner

>> This has been great. I got to keep— CMOs, go, go, go.

Scott Hebner

>> Thank you. I know. Boy. Do we ever? So I appreciate—

Scott Hebner

>> Yes, I think there's a little bit of time there where, at least in my experience at IBM, it became more of an execution, and they separated out. When I— back in the good old days, the offer— the product manager, offering manager, and the marketer was the same person. Marketing had— and then it got split out.

Scott Hebner

>> Yeah.

Scott Hebner

>> And I think it's all starting to come back to, your point about this product marketing. So I think it's a great profession to be in. So again, thank you and congratulations on just an amazing presence here at Dreamforce.

Scott Hebner

>> Thank you. Appreciate it.

Scott Hebner

>> All right. Well, we'll be back here at Dreamforce 2026 with more coverage. Scott Hebner, we'll talk to you soon. Thanks.

Mimi Spier, Certinia

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Scott Hebner

>> Hello everybody. Welcome back to theCUBE's continuing coverage of Dreamforce 2026. I'm Scott Hebner, Principal Analyst for AI at theCUBE Research. And again, thank you so much for tuning in. Today I'm thrilled to have Mimi Spier, who's the CMO, Chief Marketing Officer at Certinia, joining me. And we're going to have not only a conversation about what's happening with the marketplace, and what you're all doing here at Dreamforce. But talk a little bit CMO to CMO about how the world is changing. I think it's been 4 or 5 years since I was actually in that kind of marketing position, doing the analyst stuff now and all that. But things seem like they've changed a ton.

Scott Hebner

>> Oh my gosh.

Scott Hebner

>> So I would love to get some of your views on what's happened with the art and science of marketing these days.

Scott Hebner

>> Absolutely. Yeah, love to talk. All of the above.

Scott Hebner

>> All of the above. So let me start with, let me tell you, again, having been around for a long time, I've been to tons of these shows, used to run, the events at IBM for a while. And what you guys have done, and my compliments to, you guys as a partner, really impressive setup here right across from the Moscone Center. I think it is a great expression of brand and the value of your customers, what you're doing here. So tell us a little bit about all this that we're looking at behind us and what led to that and why you think this is so important.

Scott Hebner

>> Yeah, so Certinia is going through a major evolution, I would say. And what we announced last week was we've become a System of Action. And with our tremendous investment in AI so quickly, we are really a new company. We are now a System of Action across professional services, customer success, financial management. And with that, we need to show up differently. And we think it's important to be bold. We think it's important to bring people into the forefront of our brand because we are serving the services organizations. The services organizations that are run by people are being disrupted more than any other industry in the world with AI. And we are at the forefront of ensuring that first of all, AI will not replace services organizations, people will always be important. So we want people to be at the center of the brand and we want to take this brand and take our System of Action and help our customers get to the other side of the next generation service economy. So that's what we were showing at Dreamforce was all about.

Scott Hebner

>> Yeah. And having been covering this industry pretty much all of 2026, I think you're right. You guys come across as focused on people and economics, not just the technology. And we'll get to the technology in a second because I think you guys are way ahead of the game here in terms of what's happening here. And I love some of the messaging which is people-centric. Back at Services Week, you had AI efficiency, but it was about judgment. You need judgment. You're helping people make better judgments. And then here it's about being certain, greater certainty, the more certain you are of an outcome, the more the actions make sense, right? Or maybe it's the other way around. The more certain you are that this is the right action, you're gonna get better outcomes. And those are human attributes, right? Being, enabling better judgments, helping people be more certain about their judgments and their decisions. I think that's really good. And it comes across really strongly here.

Scott Hebner

>> Thank you, thank you. And that's exactly the goal. I think in the evolution of marketing right now with AI, things are so noisy that brand is so important and elevating a brand, even going on the edge of consumer, like consumer brands for B2B companies, I think is critical. And because brand authority is one of the most unique things I think that companies could have in order to not only stand out in this crazy world, but also train the LLMs and train the people that are in the buyers that are doing research. I think the buyer's journey has changed so much that having brand be at the forefront and brand authority I think is really critical on the marketing front. For Certinia, I think having a crystal clear message on how we can help our customers get to the next generation, is really critical. they have been very clear on what they need, and now we are delivering it. And so, this is— this represents that next generation for us.

Scott Hebner

>> Yeah, well, I got so many places I want to go with that.

Scott Hebner

>> Okay, keep— let's go.

Scott Hebner

>> Let me start on just a broader thought about— okay, I've often said, and part of the reason why I've been so focused on professional services is that I think it is where you look to see where enterprise AI is going because it's such a consequential part of the market, the sector, right?

Scott Hebner

>> Yes.

Scott Hebner

>> Because you're actually building stuff with people.

Scott Hebner

>> Right.

Scott Hebner

>> And so what happens in professional services, I think it's going to ultimately happen in other places.

Scott Hebner

>> Right.

Scott Hebner

>> You agree with that?

Scott Hebner

>> Completely. if you think about it, the professional services are who are implementing a lot of the new capabilities that are happening across every other industry. So that's one. So they are at the forefront of all new tech and all that's happening with AI. The other thing is that because they are service-led businesses, there's huge concern that they will be replaced by AI. And so they have to innovate faster than any other industry. And that's really the basis of what we're trying to do is we know the future of all industries, but especially professional services, is a balance of AI and people. We know people and work and jobs— and Jensen said it yesterday, with Marc— that jobs are not going away. They're evolving. But what's important is how do we use AI to empower people in the future of how they deliver value to their customers. And I think at Certinia, we are thinking and working with our customers every day, not just to think about how they run their business and getting rid of administrative tasks and all the things that they have to do to sell and to plan and to deliver and to manage each project and to expand it. That's kind of the basis of running the business. But how do they deliver value to customers? Because expectations now are about measuring value, not measuring billable hours anymore. And so how do we make sure that they are delivering the most efficient value using a combination of AI for all those administrative tasks and completely eliminating that from what people have to do. And then bringing that unique value that the individuals at every one of these companies have to offer in every project. So that's where we're focused. And we think this— the professional services industry is going through the biggest disruption, but they will also come out the other side the fastest and I think the strongest.

Scott Hebner

>> Yeah. And we had several of your colleagues on some of the coverage we've had here. So I think you guys are well ahead of the AI maturity curve, let's call it. I would say farther ahead than 90% of all enterprises out there by far. Which is why, you know, one of the things that's great about my job is I get to talk to a ton of different people in different industries and all that. And I think it's, like you said, you're kind of forced to do that in this industry to be an innovator. And at the same time, several of the customers that I've interviewed, your customers said, that it's actually creating more jobs, not less, because there's more projects and with greater certainty becomes—

Scott Hebner

>> and faster projects, right? Yeah.

Scott Hebner

>> So you're right. I think it's a good place to look. Let's pivot back to your comment on brand authority, because it's been my observation that the rules have changed a lot when it comes to brand authority. Let's call it that. And I think it's very different than the old world of brand equity. If you just think about the way people are doing their buying journeys today, I think G2 came out with a survey of 1,000+ B2B buyers, and I think it was 57% start with and use these AI-mediated discussions with ChatGPT or Claude or Gemini or whatever as their way to evaluate, discover, you know, the buying journey. 30% of them never leave. Never click through to a website. Basically, they're conducting the buying journey.

Scott Hebner

>> They get all the information they need from one. Yeah.

Scott Hebner

>> And that was up, I think, 36% from the year before. So I think it's probably going to trend up higher and higher. The dirty little secret about this, though, is in the old days— well, in the search days, Google Search, for example, there would be pages of options. So companies had a way to get visibility, right? Dozens and dozens would show up maybe on page 2 or page 3, but you're still there. Right. In the world of the AI answers, 3 to 8 at best show up. So there's a huge market compression going on.

Scott Hebner

>> Yeah.

Scott Hebner

>> And as the engines evaluate, who am I going to surface for this answer? Who do I trust the most in all that? And I think brand authority has become the most critical thing to establish to actually consistently show up in these answers.

Scott Hebner

>> Agree. Agree. And it's hard. I think the role of being a leader in marketing is, it's a completely different job. So, let me unpack a little bit of what you said and I'll get to, how does an organization get to the highest brand authority? And in my opinion, coming from a background in product marketing, and I do think that having a background in product marketing is almost essential for CMOs at this point, because in order to get brand authority, you have to have the right message to the right buyers group. And that doesn't mean just one individual, but the entire buyers group. With the right product, with the right proof points, at the right time. And this is a strategic mindset that the entire executive team has to be a part of to make sure that we have the right business strategy. So it starts with that. The second is how do we create content? Because content is so noisy. How do we create content that answers the questions of each of the personas within the buyers group at the stage that they're in when they're looking. We know that they're going into the LLMs. We know they can do very quick research. By the time they get to our website, they're much more knowledgeable than they used to be. And so the content has to change. And I've been in many CMO clubs and I've had a lot of fantastic CMO mentors. And one of the most consistent things that we've come up with is that we have to almost reverse engineer the content now and really understand what are the questions we're trying to answer and what is the best content that the LLMs will pick up and respond with authority and credibility that also answers the questions that the buyers within the buyer's group are asking at the given time. So anyway, that's just the beginning, I think, of brand authority. And it's easier said than done for sure.

Scott Hebner

>> It is. I think it's a combination of an art and a science, right?

Scott Hebner

>> Yeah.

Scott Hebner

>> Unlike SEO, which was more of a science, right? Backlinks, so on and so forth. Yeah. keywords, very— and the keyword implied the value of what people were looking for, where right now you have to really understand what the real intent is.

Scott Hebner

>> Exactly.

Scott Hebner

>> Of a question, not just what the question is, but what's the intent of it? Is it decision-making?

Scott Hebner

>> Yeah. And you have to have real credibility. So you talked about this earlier, but I wanted to just jump on that because you can't fake out the LLMs, you can't cheat. you have to have true authority. You have to have partners and customers and awards and analysts and people around you that are saying positive things and very clear and concise value that they are getting from your solution. And that is what is going to improve the brand authority. And so how you get that is definitely the art and science.

Scott Hebner

>> So yeah, it absolutely is. And these LLMs, these answer engine mechanisms, are in practice authority evaluation machines. They will not take your claims at face value. They would want proof, and the proof comes from the ecosystem of reinforcement that's out there. So what is published external or non-owned and what the opinions of others are count more and that's what's so different about SEO. And I think you're right about the content. There's content that helps machines understand semantically what you're all about, why you matter, what you do. There's content that establishes relevance in the moment, right? There's content that validates you. So, are you credible? Are you authentic? Are you authoritative in your market? Are you a practitioner and therefore trusted because you've done this before? And then the content piece is one thing that is amazing. The numbers are startling. 90% of websites aren't AEO ready. They've been developed for humans and for SEO, but not for LLM crawlers.

Scott Hebner

>> Yes.

Scott Hebner

>> And that's a whole mechanical, that's a science.

Scott Hebner

>> That's a whole nother, and that's exactly, that is. So that's a big part of it as well is your website. And when people land on the website, they're in a different stage than they used to be. So it has to have the right information and be able to drive the right buyer's journey, from the minute they land and be able to answer the questions they need. So yeah, I get it.

Scott Hebner

>> For all those reasons, that's why I think the next stage here is, there's some good surveys recently that CMOs don't need more tools to monitor and measure. Yeah, they need AEO diagnostics. They need to be able to diagnose why things are what they are. And more importantly, what to do about it. And you sort of have to understand root cause if you're really going to make a durable impact.

Scott Hebner

>> Right.

Scott Hebner

>> And I think that's where it's all heading, is to really get under the covers of all this and answer the question of why. And that's where I sense people are struggling. And the rules have totally changed. And they're— because we're dealing with probabilistic entities being these LLMs, given that every— God, whatever— every week there's a new LLM new version, Frontier model coming out. It is an ongoing job just to keep up with the science of it, and then the art form is how you interpret it, which brings me full circle back to your comment about product management, product marketing background being so important, because it's no longer an execution excellence job. It's not a cost center.

Scott Hebner

>> Right, it's not just pushing more ads, it's not just pushing more search, it's much more strategic. That starts at the very beginning of your business strategy, really.

Scott Hebner

>> So, and you're here at Certinia, you're part of the strategic leadership team.

Scott Hebner

>> Yeah, very much.

Scott Hebner

>> You have a voice at the table. You're helping to inform what's happening with buyers and markets.

Scott Hebner

>> Very much. And you need to be glued at the hip with the COO, with the chief product officer, with the CEO. We all need to define this together because ultimately it's the basis of your business strategy, which, what we've and how we become a system of action, for example, that will drive your marketing strategy.

Scott Hebner

>> So anyway. What's your view on, which I think is all nonsense, by the way, I'm the exact opposite. I think AI's gonna create more jobs in the long run. I'm glad you asked this. I'm gonna ask you about, first of all, the broader theme is that AI's gonna take everyone's jobs. Now it's gonna kill us all. Reminds me of the year 2000 thing.

Scott Hebner

>> Totally.We were all gonna die in the year 2000, nothing happened, right? But it's my sense that marketing becomes an increasingly important profession because of AI, and that there's actually going to be a need for more people because you become more strategic. It's not the execution, it's not the value. Yeah, AI is going to do more and more of maybe some jobs, but it's going to shift the burden to more important jobs, which brings me back to your— what sparked the question was being— having a seat at the table.

Scott Hebner

>> Yes. Okay. So let

Scott Hebner

>> me—you agree we're not going to get all killed by it?

Scott Hebner

>> Agree. So here's what I would say, because I've read a ton about what's going to happen in marketing and these one-man marketing shops that are doing everything, and no, that's not happening. Do I think marketing is more efficient with AI? Absolutely. Do I think that we can be incredibly prescriptive in how we use AI to make ourselves more efficient, to personalize the right message to the right persona at the right time in a much faster way? Absolutely. Can we get target and intent signals much more efficiently? Absolutely. Can we arm sales with a better competitive lens and better objection handling and things like that faster? Absolutely. So will it be— is it more efficient? Yes. But it gives me personally more time to be more strategic and spend more time with my executive team really diagnosing where do we want to go as a company, what is going to get us there, and what's the marketing strategy that would then connect to that to get us there. So yeah, I think teams can do more with less. I do. I think you don't need as big a marketing team as you used to. I think the roles of the marketing people have changed. You need definitely more strategic people and you need people that can balance and not be afraid to lean into AI to help them to be more efficient in their jobs.

Scott Hebner

>> So sort of

Scott Hebner

>> like—and it's still an evolution for all. We're all learning. We're all seeing, I don't know all the answers at this point.

Scott Hebner

>> I don't think AI is going to replace marketing people. It's marketing people that know how to use AI that are going to replace marketing people that don't.

Scott Hebner

>> Oh, no doubt about that. No doubt about

Scott Hebner

>> that.Because marketing— I just sort of know. So it's been many years since I've been in the marketing, an actual— at IBM, actually doing marketing, but it seemed to me that it was becoming more and more of a data science kind of role.

Scott Hebner

>> Very much.

Scott Hebner

>> The really strong ones were not only strategic, but they knew how to diagnose data, pipeline, all that kind of stuff. And now you're adding the AI layer on top of, so it's a rapidly changing profession, but I think super important. And if you just go back to your comment on brand authority, the marketing leader is the one I would think is most accountable, along with chief communications for the brand authority. And I do strongly, strongly, super strongly believe that brand authority will become the differentiation of who's visible and who's not. And more importantly, who's preferred in these AI answers and when you think about it, it's literally compressing the market.

Scott Hebner

>> I know.

Scott Hebner

>> And like you said, all the noise of the content. And so there's just a whole new set of rules that people got to quickly get their head around. The other true thing about AEO is that your advantage compounds. The more you're in a leadership position, the more you get recalled, the more you get cited, the more you're on shortlists. It just reinforces your durability with the engine.

Scott Hebner

>> Completely.

Scott Hebner

>> And your vector space expands into adjacent areas. And so if you fall behind, you may never catch up.

Scott Hebner

>> True, true. And I do think the key is be certain— I'll just throw it out there— about your strategy for your business, who you're targeting, in what markets, with what product, how you price, how you package, how you message to get the most differentiated message. Be certain about that and everything else, and then you'll go and get all the credibility, you'll get your customers, you'll get all the people saying the right things, go get that credibility, go get that authority or the third-party voice that proves and gives the proof points that you're doing this. Then you can be really bold in your brand to get that authority.

Scott Hebner

>> Just the interviews we've done here at Dreamforce, vast majority were customers, which is the third-party reinforcement. I know, so happy about that. That's what builds brand authority. Before we wrap up here, Tell us a little bit about what it's been, 3, 4 months since you've joined? Not even that?

Scott Hebner

>> Yeah. Yes, it's been about 4 months.

Scott Hebner

>> So how's it gone?

Scott Hebner

>> It's been incredible. I feel that the company was ready to go a little more bold. It was a perfect time. We just invested in AI. We acquired Moonnox. We knew our aggressive roadmap where we are heading towards by the end of the year. And so it gave me this excitement. We know our customers. We just won the IDC Customer Satisfaction Awards. So we know our customers are super happy with what we're doing, and it gave me so much— we are number one on the IDC MarketScape. So we have one of the best products out there. So for a marketer, it's kind of a dream where you kind of— and we have a fabulous executive team where I get to work with these amazing people, and I have a lot of freedom to do what I think is right for the business. And so being able to show up at Dreamforce with a completely new way of describing ourselves, a very clear and consistent message with this bold brand that puts people and elevates people first, has been a really fun 3, 4 months as a starting point.

Scott Hebner

>> I've really enjoyed covering you guys, going back more closely to March, I think. And it seems like every couple months there's a whole new progression. It's the same narrative, but new chapters. And so you guys are innovating at rapid speed. It's all customer-centric, people-centric, as you said. And so we'll see what you guys are going to do in a couple of months.

Scott Hebner

>> Just wait till TSIA. That's the next step. We're going to continue. We are moving fast and we'll have more to announce then. So thanks for having me. This has been really awesome.

Scott Hebner

>> This has been great. I got to keep— CMOs, go, go, go.

Scott Hebner

>> Thank you. I know. Boy. Do we ever? So I appreciate—

Scott Hebner

>> Yes, I think there's a little bit of time there where, at least in my experience at IBM, it became more of an execution, and they separated out. When I— back in the good old days, the offer— the product manager, offering manager, and the marketer was the same person. Marketing had— and then it got split out.

Scott Hebner

>> Yeah.

Scott Hebner

>> And I think it's all starting to come back to, your point about this product marketing. So I think it's a great profession to be in. So again, thank you and congratulations on just an amazing presence here at Dreamforce.

Scott Hebner

>> Thank you. Appreciate it.

Scott Hebner

>> All right. Well, we'll be back here at Dreamforce 2026 with more coverage. Scott Hebner, we'll talk to you soon. Thanks.